Rigdzin

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Rigdzin

Postby kalden yungdrung » Fri May 13, 2011 3:38 pm

Tashi delek, :)

Rigdzin would mean, an Awareness / Lineage Holder.

- My question,
In what cases is given to someone, the status of a Dzogchen Rigdzin?

Best wishes
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Rigdzin

Postby username » Fri May 13, 2011 6:48 pm

Unlike rinpoche it is rarely given, even if someone shows major siddhis. But that is protocol, highest historic Tibetan masters/mistresses and Indian mahasiddhas were rigzins for sure but there are lower levels too. Rig 'dzin is rigpa-holder or vidya-dhara (Sanskrit). Rigpa (Skt. vidya) is the ultimate wisdom awareness or enlightenment beyond conceptual understanding. Rig should not be mistaken for Sanskrit rig or ṛ́c meaning praise or verse http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%8B ... D#Sanskrit. Rig is not originally Tibetan either. It is from one of the Old Persian languages, Pahlavi IIRC, meaning ultimate knowledge and wisdom. There are various mappings of vidyadhara levels and four visions and also bhumis. http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... ara_levels

BTW you might be interested in probably one of the most important academic conferences ever on Bon, Professor Namkhai Norbu (retired of Naples University) and Lopon Tenzin Namdak headline a list of top academic experts:
http://www.soas.ac.uk/chinesestudies/ev ... e66989.pdf

http://www.shangshunguk.org/v1/index.ph ... b767651340
Last edited by username on Fri May 13, 2011 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Rigdzin

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 13, 2011 6:53 pm

username wrote: Rig is not originally Tibetan either. It is from one of Old Persian languages, Pahlavi IIRC, meaning ultimate knowledge and wisdom.



Where did you learn this?

N
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen
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Re: Rigdzin

Postby username » Fri May 13, 2011 7:08 pm

Namdrol wrote:
username wrote: Rig is not originally Tibetan either. It is from one of Old Persian languages, Pahlavi IIRC, meaning ultimate knowledge and wisdom.



Where did you learn this?

N

I, not expert in the field, used to read various books on the Gathas/Avesta/etc. and was given rare and new books on them by an expert author friend often when I was interested back then. So long before being a Buddhist knew what rig meant. A few years ago reading an article on Bon, can't remember whose, it stated the etymology of the word from there as a given. I think most Shangshung experts know this if you email one.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
username
 
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Re: Rigdzin

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 13, 2011 8:44 pm

username wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
username wrote: Rig is not originally Tibetan either. It is from one of Old Persian languages, Pahlavi IIRC, meaning ultimate knowledge and wisdom.



Where did you learn this?

N

I, not expert in the field, used to read various books on the Gathas/Avesta/etc. and was given rare and new books on them by an expert author friend often when I was interested back then. So long before being a Buddhist knew what rig meant. A few years ago reading an article on Bon, can't remember whose, it stated the etymology of the word from there as a given. I think most Shangshung experts know this if you email one.



interesting.
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen
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Malcolm
 
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Re: Rigdzin

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sat May 14, 2011 8:10 am

Username wrote:
I, not expert in the field, used to read various books on the Gathas/Avesta/etc. and was given rare and new books on them by an expert author friend often when I was interested back then. So long before being a Buddhist knew what rig meant. A few years ago reading an article on Bon, can't remember whose, it stated the etymology of the word from there as a given. I think most Shangshung experts know this if you email one.



Tashi delek Username, :D

Well regarding your statement if Rig would be a Zhang Zhung word or a Persian, is a very interesting remark.
Maybe will some Zhang Zhung experts be able to give a good suggestion regarding the source of this word, did contact some of them and am awaiting for a soon reply.

- Read also you are not an expert in this field so what is your philosophy and practice when i may ask?
- Regarding this field do you mean Bon Zhang Zhung Dzogchen?

Best wishes
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Rigdzin

Postby muni » Sat May 14, 2011 8:20 am

muni
 
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Re: Rigdzin

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sat May 14, 2011 9:44 am



Tashi delek, :D

Thanks for the reply

Saw the term Rigdzin as used in relation to Bon lineage holders.
But that does not prove that Rigdzin would be a word stemming out of the Zhang Zhung language or the Persian one.

But your link let show us some more about the function Rigdzin.

Best wishes
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Posts: 1110
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:40 pm

Re: Rigdzin

Postby username » Sat May 14, 2011 3:10 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:

Tashi delek Username, :D

Well regarding your statement if Rig would be a Zhang Zhung word or a Persian, is a very interesting remark.
Maybe will some Zhang Zhung experts be able to give a good suggestion regarding the source of this word, did contact some of them and am awaiting for a soon reply.

- Read also you are not an expert in this field so what is your philosophy and practice when i may ask?
- Regarding this field do you mean Bon Zhang Zhung Dzogchen?

Best wishes
KY

Hi kalden yungdrung,
Before practicing Tibetan Buddhism I was always an atheist though I read in the 90's somewhat but not deeply on Hinduism, Jainism, Zoroastrianism (field referred to), Theravada and Zen as well as deeper on cerrtain western philosophies which I have been doing since I was a young teen. I have postgrad and professional expertise in a few areas but Tibetan Buddhism is not one of them. BTW dzin (holder) part of "rig 'dzin" (awareness holder) is Tibetan and we were only talking about rig (root word of rigpa & others). You might clarify that in your emails. Have a good weekend.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
username
 
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Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:23 pm

Re: Rigdzin

Postby kalden yungdrung » Tue May 17, 2011 8:00 am

username wrote:
Rig is not originally Tibetan either. It is from one of Old Persian languages, Pahlavi IIRC, meaning ultimate knowledge and wisdom.



Tashi delek Username, :)

Did contact a friend, a certain Mr.Dan Martin, a wellknown writer and expert, regarding Bon and other Dharma matters, who did asure me:

Dan Martin wrote:
Here http://www.rabbinics.org/pahlavi/MacKenzie-PahlDict.pdfis a Pahlavi dictionary, so you can check for yourself.
I don't know what Zhangzhung is supposed to do with it. ZZ rig (or tig, or rig tig, or tig tig) means 'field.'
I don't see any RIG word there in that Pahlavi dictionary, but check these out:

bun [bwn' I = M, N.....,] base, foundation, bottom.
bun [bwn l IN.....,] = wan.
bun-dahisn(ih) [bwndhSn -yh] primal creation.
bunih [bwnyh] beginning.
bunist [bwnyft' I = M] foundation.
.....,a~ [-k l ] principle.
bun-kada~ [bwnktkl ] original house, home.
bun-xan [bwnh)n ] source.

So it is not known in the Phalavi or Iranian language the word Rig.

Best wishes
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Posts: 1110
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:40 pm

Re: Rigdzin

Postby username » Tue May 17, 2011 6:37 pm

Hi kalden yungdrung,

Yes I know as on Sunday I downloaded MacKenzie's concise and had a good look through but I didn't want to put anyone off as it is only a concise dictionary and might not have all the words. But I pretty much decided that it wasn't Pahlavi. This leaves two other options. Pahlavi was the late Persian language and there were a few others but the other main two are Avestan (language of Avesta) which is a sister language to Sanskrit and close and the other Old Persian. So I downloaded another Avestan glossary (44 pages). In the glossary I looked for words like wisdom & knowledge & know and the words are similar to Sanskrit (Vidya), vaedu, vidu and I even saw a word close to prajna. There is also an Avestan Dictionary book scan online (http://www.avesta.org/kanga/) but as we can't read Avestan script it is not of use. There are many Indian and Persian Zoroastrians who can read it though.

Avestan glossary (I can't remember the link but can upload it somewhere if anyone wants it):

vaed-, pres. intens. voiuuid-, pres. caus. vaedaiia-, aor.
vaed-/°uuoid-, perf. vaed-, perf. part. viduuah-
(q.v.): to know.
vaede

and
prajñatár- “who knows the way.”
also other online smaller glossaries mentioned vaedu, vidu, etc.


The last option, and probably the solution, is that rig is originally from Old Persian. If it is then only a few professors can read that and you need to email them in their universities and simply ask if the word rig has meanings in Old Persian relationg to: knowledge/know/knowing, wisdom, gnosis or similar cases? Most of them should know a few other dead languages to some extent and it would be good to ask if rig occurs in any of them as far as they know. I think rig might rarely have been used in Aavestan or even Pahlavi but I now suspect it is from Old Persian.

On sunday I tried to search for the article on Bon that mentioned this etymology of rig. I know it was a pdf but after an hour I gave up. I know it wasn't by Dan or any of the other usual writers. I am sure if you post a topic on a Bon forum regarding Persian root of rig, someone will eventually step up or know the reference.

Finally on Sunday I was thinking about Avesta's counterpart in Hinduism which is the famous Rig-Veda. The Veda part is basically vidya/rigpa and the rig part as I said originally in this thread is usually translated by Sanskrit translators as praise or verse(s)/phrase(s). However I thought that rig originally could also have meant veda (vidya) too. And this double or triple barelling could mean both in praise of veda and phrases on veda (as is currently believed) but a third connotation could be using the same concept by two similar words about it to reinforce it. If I am right then rig could have also meant veda (vidya) in Sanskrit back in the mists of time. But later it's two other main uses took over. For that an expert on history of Sanskrit is needed probably, or maybe not, which is again only a few people. This is just my new pet theory. Good luck.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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