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Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso - Page 13 - Dhamma Wheel

Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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bodhabill
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby bodhabill » Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:52 am

"Complaining is finding faults, wisdom is finding solutions" Ajahn Brahm

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cooran
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby cooran » Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:52 am

O.K. JC ~ so ..... we just have to add the words "whether it be true or not" and we can then say, or imply, whatever we llike about the Ajahn Sumedho and Ajahn Liem or Ven. Brahmavamso and Ven Sujato..... and then claim the moral high ground .... ??

Cool! :twothumbsup:
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby jcsuperstar » Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:52 am

สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:54 am

JC I am not a studnt of any of these monks.

EDIT - there are 2 monks in the forest sangha I have o time for (not meaning brahm or sujato)


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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cooran
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby cooran » Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:01 am

---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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jcsuperstar
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby jcsuperstar » Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:14 am

สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby pink_trike » Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:15 am

Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:23 am

in Sujatos blog article manthink he tries to link prostitution and paedophilia to the Thai Sangha’s bhikkhu only policy and to Rape generally (rape point may be reading to much into it on my part) I think the bhikkhu only policy is a fair way to put it, but linking paedophilia & prostitution to the Sangha is pushing to far. if the Sangha was directly involved or committing these acts then that is a different matter and the Thais have shown in the past quite strong reactions to such behaviour of monks who break the rules, or impoter monks breaking the rules and what purpose would such an allegation serve but to undermine faith in the thai Sangha?
http://sujato.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/manthink/

Ajahn Kevali who proposed the Bhikkhuni ordination for the WAM be discussed is apparently a sexist a fact he points out well before he mentions who proposed the discussion, in the context of what happened every time the issue is raised (squashed as he put it). One possible reason he mentions the sexist attitude well before, could be to allow the reader to have plenty of time to form an opinion of him before seeing what he done with a reason which can then be believed more easily.
http://sujato.wordpress.com/2009/11/05/ ... -nanachat/

Sujato also claims no one knew about the Mahatherasamakhom’s actual rulings being part and parcel of the WPP Sangha’s branch monasteries conditions of being a branch monastery but Brahms letter would indicate otherwise. http://www.dhammalight.com/corresponden ... -04-08.pdf

ditthi vipatti view + failing = failure in theory not meaning without the approval of the Sangha of Wat Pah Pong


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Cittasanto
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:26 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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pink_trike
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby pink_trike » Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:29 am

Last edited by pink_trike on Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

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cooran
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby cooran » Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:57 am

---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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pink_trike
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby pink_trike » Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:03 am

Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

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cooran
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby cooran » Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:11 am

I think this is why various people are "talking past" each other.

We don't agree on the issue, and implying that there is only one issue (i.e. the one you see) and that some are using 'smoke and mirrors' (those who don't have "our" point of view), when they are not, simply exasperates people.
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby pink_trike » Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:19 am

Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:21 am

I tend to agree with Chris. This is my worst fear with this issue, that it becomes one-dimensional, two camps:
* You're for Bhikkhunis right now or you're sexist and obstructive.
* You're upholding the purity of the Sangha or you're schismatic.

I prefer to think that everyone is acting with the best of intentions according to their own analysis of the situation.

Metta
Mike

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cooran
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby cooran » Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:37 am

Thanks Mike.
I agree.

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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David N. Snyder
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby David N. Snyder » Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:55 am

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pilgrim
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby pilgrim » Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:11 am

All having been said and done, Aj Brahm has now proposed that both sides forgive each other. It has been some time now. The longer it takes for a positive response ( if at all, a positive response is forthcoming) the more difficult it is to think of charitable reasons for the delay.

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby jcsuperstar » Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:16 am

personally i don't know what to think about all of this. i will say i'm kinda glad it happened, and i think it's better it was done by such a popular and respected (by both Asian and non Asian Buddhists) monk so it cant just be chalked up to some unknown inexperienced monk trying to make a name for himself. being a monk isn't easy sometimes, I've known many monks and ex monks on a very intimate basis and there are things monks want to say or do, regarding things like this, or politics etc but they just cant. the Thai lay community ,especially overseas, can just turn on you, quit feeding you, write letters back to Thailand saying you're doing a bad job or worse. and I've said this before, unless the western lay sangha really starts picking up the tab it's the Thai lay sangha that is in control. so who really knows what is going on here? there are very few monks popular enough to just say and do what they want (think LP Boowa, or LP Buddhadasa both of whom are/were in positions not to worry too much about turning people off), maybe Ajahn Brahm feels he is in that position, and maybe he is? we will certainly find out now though.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby pink_trike » Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:23 am

Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.


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