Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby tamdrin » Fri May 13, 2011 1:45 am

Namdrol wrote:
tamdrin wrote:Namdrol will never quit...



Not when someone else has a misunderstanding.



You better contact Tulku Thondup and tell him.
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Pero » Fri May 13, 2011 1:53 am

Namdrol wrote:As I said, "popularly" read further. In any case, I know perfectly well what my teachers have said on this issue. Tregchö does not result in rainbow body. It only results in the dissolution of the elements. Some people call that "rainbow body" but it is a mistake. You don't believe me, take it up with ChNN.

No, I heard it plenty of times. :)
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 13, 2011 2:01 am

tamdrin wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
tamdrin wrote:Namdrol will never quit...



Not when someone else has a misunderstanding.



You better contact Tulku Thondup and tell him.



Tulku Thundup has no misunderstanding. He is referring to what is popularly termed "rainbow body".

Keep reading on bottom of page 83 into page 84.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby adinatha » Fri May 13, 2011 2:16 am

tamdrin wrote:
adinatha wrote:BTW emptiness and clarity is dzogchen talk. That's not mahamudra.



not true at all..
dzoghcen is the union of awareness and emptiness..
both are direct perceptions of the ultimate which is the important liberative point.


We say different. The union of this and that is common of the Rime movement. We don't say union of anything. We don't rely on anything.
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 13, 2011 2:45 am

adinatha wrote:
We say different. The union of this and that is common of the Rime movement. We don't say union of anything. We don't rely on anything.



The Drugpa master, Gyalwa Yangongpa states in The Treasury of the Essential Meaning: The Stages of the Four Yogas of Mahāmudrā



Now then, first it is necessary to recognize “mahāmudra” or phyag rgya chen po. In the sutras and tantras of the Sugatas and the instructions of the siddhas of the past a sequence of four mudrās is taught, since mahāmudrā manifests independent on the three other mudrās. Here, [4/a] the sequence of those instructions, the stages of the three mudrās are complete with meaning by power of blessings. Since one is caused to recognize mahāmudra with a special method, it is an immediate path.

Now then “mahāmudra”: one person claims “Phyag is appearance, rgya is emptiness, chen po is union.” But this is a term for dharmamudra, not our term “mahāmudra.” All terms for clarity and emptiness are terms of samayamudrā. All terms of bliss and emptiness are terms for karmamudrā. Mahāmudra is the position of the Brahmin Saraha, whose position is that it is free from three conditions, beyond the four joys, and alone is distinct from luminous clarity. Since mahāmudrā does not depend on the condition of bliss, does not depend on the condition of clarity, and does not depend on the condition of non-conceptuality, it does not depend on the three conditions. From among the four joys, since the innate joy is demonstrated by the Guru, exists as it understood by the disciple, [4/b] it is an example wisdom with a demonstration and a demonstrator.

But mahāmudra cannot be shown by a Guru, and cannot be understood by a disciple. It is not soiled by experience and sensations, it is not corrupted by realization and certainty, it is not divided by view, meditation and conduct, it is not sectioned into a basis, path and result, all of these phenomena of appearance and existence, samsara and nirvana are neither removed or added, bound or freed, are fixed with an antidote. Recognition of and self-liberation into one’s own state is called “mahāmudrā.” Luminous clarity is without appearances and free from extremes but mahāmudra is fresh appearances and knowing (rig pa), and because proliferation is self-liberated it is different than luminous clarity.


This is the real mahāmudra.

BTW, this real mahāmudra is beyond so called "essence" mahāmudra since essence mahāmudra depends in an introduction.
Last edited by Malcolm on Fri May 13, 2011 2:48 am, edited 4 times in total.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby tamdrin » Fri May 13, 2011 2:45 am

adinatha,
that is your own made up conception, mahamudra is the indivisible union of emptiness and clarity. read the prayer that jigten sumgon got from Tara whenhe was enlightened the kyab dun ma ni
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 13, 2011 2:47 am

tamdrin wrote:adinatha,
that is your own made up conception, mahamudra is the indivisible union of emptiness and clarity. read the prayer that jigten sumgon got from Tara whenhe was enlightened the kyab dun ma ni



Adinatha is just going to tell you this is mahamudra for sissies and girly men.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby adinatha » Fri May 13, 2011 2:52 am

Namdrol wrote:
tamdrin wrote:adinatha,
that is your own made up conception, mahamudra is the indivisible union of emptiness and clarity. read the prayer that jigten sumgon got from Tara whenhe was enlightened the kyab dun ma ni



Adinatha is just going to tell you this is mahamudra for sissies and girly men.


Did you perhaps giggle a little when you wrote this? Come on I bet you did big guy. This is funny.
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby adinatha » Fri May 13, 2011 3:07 am

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
We say different. The union of this and that is common of the Rime movement. We don't say union of anything. We don't rely on anything.



The Drugpa master, Gyalwa Yangongpa states in The Treasury of the Essential Meaning: The Stages of the Four Yogas of Mahāmudrā



Now then, first it is necessary to recognize “mahāmudra” or phyag rgya chen po. In the sutras and tantras of the Sugatas and the instructions of the siddhas of the past a sequence of four mudrās is taught, since mahāmudrā manifests independent on the three other mudrās. Here, [4/a] the sequence of those instructions, the stages of the three mudrās are complete with meaning by power of blessings. Since one is caused to recognize mahāmudra with a special method, it is an immediate path.

Now then “mahāmudra”: one person claims “Phyag is appearance, rgya is emptiness, chen po is union.” But this is a term for dharmamudra, not our term “mahāmudra.” All terms for clarity and emptiness are terms of samayamudrā. All terms of bliss and emptiness are terms for karmamudrā. Mahāmudra is the position of the Brahmin Saraha, whose position is that it is free from three conditions, beyond the four joys, and alone is distinct from luminous clarity. Since mahāmudrā does not depend on the condition of bliss, does not depend on the condition of clarity, and does not depend on the condition of non-conceptuality, it does not depend on the three conditions. From among the four joys, since the innate joy is demonstrated by the Guru, exists as it understood by the disciple, [4/b] it is an example wisdom with a demonstration and a demonstrator.

But mahāmudra cannot be shown by a Guru, and cannot be understood by a disciple. It is not soiled by experience and sensations, it is not corrupted by realization and certainty, it is not divided by view, meditation and conduct, it is not sectioned into a basis, path and result, all of these phenomena of appearance and existence, samsara and nirvana are neither removed or added, bound or freed, are fixed with an antidote. Recognition of and self-liberation into one’s own state is called “mahāmudrā.” Luminous clarity is without appearances and free from extremes but mahāmudra is fresh appearances and knowing (rig pa), and because proliferation is self-liberated it is different than luminous clarity.


This is the real mahāmudra.

BTW, this real mahāmudra is beyond so called "essence" mahāmudra since essence mahāmudra depends in an introduction.


Nice. To be honest, I only use the term "essence mahamudra" because that's a phrase I've heard people say and it distinguishes it from tantra mahamudra. I actually have no idea what "essence mahamudra" is. My lama and I talk about "pure" or "the essence" when we are talking about what you have quoted above. But the So now we have "real mahamudra." This is right. The method to get into this "real mahamudra" is four foundations (editing here and adding if necessary), transmission and most importantly lineage blessings. Really we call it "Ganga Mahamudra" is the view and "Co-Emergent Unification" is the path.

When Phagmo Drupa went to Gampopa and asked him how to realize the nature of mind. Gampopa said to the effect of "go put the guru over your head and pray for blessings." Then, Phagmo Drupa went back was said, "no seriously how do I recognize it?" And Gampopa said, "Go to a lonely place, and put the guru over your head and pray for blessings." That's how it goes here.

My lama just called and invited my father and I over for momo. He said, "he has momo 1kg, very delish." That's how we roll.
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Sonam Wangchug » Fri May 13, 2011 3:11 am

Hello, i've been following this thread, and I appreciate the discussion between Adinatha and Namdrol. I'm not an accomplished practitioner, and I have not studied very much. I'm not particularly here to debate at this time.

Namdrol, I understand that you are saying that Dzogchen is superior.

In what specific way is Dzogchen superior to mahamudra?

Secondly about the buddha-hood that reverts to a basis, What is the tibetan term for this? What exactly does reverting to a basis entail, and could you provide a quote from a dzogchen text, that states that non-dzogchen paths (including mahamudra) Revert to basis? Thanks
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby adinatha » Fri May 13, 2011 3:18 am

tamdrin wrote:adinatha,
that is your own made up conception, mahamudra is the indivisible union of emptiness and clarity. read the prayer that jigten sumgon got from Tara whenhe was enlightened the kyab dun ma ni


I'm not making anything up. The passage Namdrol quoted sums it up well.
Homage to Vajradakini!...
Although Mahamudra cannot be taught...
...with no object to rely on...
...rest in ease in the unaltered innate state.


Ganga Mahamudra Upadesha


Lord Jigten Sumgon taught various paths. He also taught tantra mahamudra.
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Heruka » Fri May 13, 2011 3:22 am

does not dzogchen mention the seven stereotypical distortions that arise due to misunderstanding and distortions based upon characteristics of the basis, i.e from taking it as a proper object of analysis and often only seeing one side of a multi faceted spectrum?

sorry to cut in on the discussion, thought i might insert that in here.

but that seems to my mind, the core of the topic.
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri May 13, 2011 11:34 am

Namdrol wrote:Dzogchen is not rocket science. It is very easy to understand if you have an open mind and you do not go around complicating things.
Now that's rich! Thirteen pages later and you guys are still arguing (for claritys sake) over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin!

... biggest obstacle to understanding Dzogchen that people have is Buddhism, so they constantly try to compare Dzogchen with the vehicles of cause and result... Dzogchen is completely beyond cause and result.
So Dzogchen is not about enlightenment (going beyond cause and effect)? Coz that's what I thought Buddhism was all about. Call me deluded or something but... :shrug:

Though this thread has been an interesting read, I have to admit that it seems like a bit of a "lad"-ish member measuring competition of the style: My rainbow body is bigger than yours! My complete enlightenment is more complete than yours! My master is more masterful than yours! ad nauseum...
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 13, 2011 1:26 pm

Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Namdrol, I understand that you are saying that Dzogchen is superior.



A text from the Vairocana aural lineage states:

Otherwise, at that time, Vajrasattva emanated Garab Dorje from his heart and he arrived in the presence of five hundred Indian panditas, “My teaching is superior to your eight vehicles, more amazing than the view of mahāmudra, union. If it is understood in the morning, buddhahood in the morning, if understood in the evening, the dharmas of buddhahood in the evening. It is the essence of all views, the intention of all buddhas, the apex of all yanas, the dharma of the true meaning, called “the great perfection”.

In what specific way is Dzogchen superior to mahamudra?


When we say Dzogchen is superior to mahāmudra, we are referring to paths. In general, we are referring to sutra mahāmudra and mahāmudra of the two stages. Ultimately however, the state of Dzogchen, the state of Prajñāpāramita, and the state of Mahāmudra are not different.

Dzogchen offers a more detailed explanation of what this state entails, how Samantabhadra's liberation occured (yes, Samantabhadra is the name for Dharmakāya in gsar ma tantra as well, originating in Yogatantra, actually), how the delusion of sentient beings occurred and so on, as well as many explanations specific to the path.

Secondly about the buddha-hood that reverts to a basis, What is the tibetan term for this? What exactly does reverting to a basis entail, and could you provide a quote from a dzogchen text, that states that non-dzogchen paths (including mahamudra) Revert to basis? Thanks


I'll have to get back to you on that:

Meantime, the notion of a primordial Buddhahood is directly refuted by Shri Singha in this text.

This is acceptable since a so called “primordial buddhahood” is not asserted. Full awakening is not possible without being free of the five afflictions. Both śravakas and pratyekabuddhas are abandon afflictions. Cittamatra and madhyamaka stop afflictions. Kriya, upa and yoga purify afflictions and transform them. The trio of mahāyoga, anuyoga and the view of union (mahāmudra) take afflictions into the path. The great perfection places afflictions a state of ceaseless objectlessness. It is not possible for wisdom to increase without giving up afflictions. Wisdom will not arise without purifying afflictions.

And, in giving advice about how Tibetans do not understand Dharma he states:

"Since you Tibetans are small-minded, you are newly associated with dharma. Since you make new friends easily, you become biased towards dharma. Since you are fickle, māras and gongpos will enter your hearts. In terms of great perfection, the dharma of the unsurpassed result, one is bound in fabrications by dharmas bound in concepts. Since you have not differentiated views, you grasp your own opinions. Since you have not differentiated what to accept and what to reject, you do as you please. Since you have not differentiated the basis and the dharmakāya, you are not free from hope and fear."

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 13, 2011 1:30 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:So Dzogchen is not about enlightenment (going beyond cause and effect)?


The state of Dzogchen, your state, is already beyond cause and effect. Practicing will not make it so. The sole purpose of practice is to remove obscurations. Not to attain something new.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri May 13, 2011 2:01 pm

Namdrol wrote:The state of Dzogchen, your state, is already beyond cause and effect. Practicing will not make it so. The sole purpose of practice is to remove obscurations. Not to attain something new.
Going beyond something (as I stated) is not, in a sense, attaining something though the subjective notion of difference can be conceived of as an attainment.

To say though that Dzogchen is not about practice is bit, well, misguided. To say that it is a practice without an object is possibly closer to the truth. It is though, a way of being, thus a way of practicing (in the sense of a form of activity). But now I am splitting hairs.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 13, 2011 2:15 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Namdrol wrote:The state of Dzogchen, your state, is already beyond cause and effect. Practicing will not make it so. The sole purpose of practice is to remove obscurations. Not to attain something new.
Going beyond something (as I stated) is not, in a sense, attaining something though the subjective notion of difference can be conceived of as an attainment.

To say though that Dzogchen is not about practice is bit, well, misguided. To say that it is a practice without an object is possibly closer to the truth. It is though, a way of being, thus a way of practicing (in the sense of a form of activity). But now I am splitting hairs.
:namaste:



Hi Greg:

There is no way to improve on something perfect already i.e. your primordial state. But there is something to do in terms of removing your ignorance of that fact. That is what I was trying to communicate with you. The difference between a buddha and sentient being is only recognition and integration with that state or not.

Dzogchen is not "a way of being" per se. It is not a "style". It is remaining in a state of knowledge about one's primordial state, that's all.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby adinatha » Fri May 13, 2011 6:02 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Dzogchen is not rocket science. It is very easy to understand if you have an open mind and you do not go around complicating things.
Now that's rich! Thirteen pages later and you guys are still arguing (for claritys sake) over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin!

... biggest obstacle to understanding Dzogchen that people have is Buddhism, so they constantly try to compare Dzogchen with the vehicles of cause and result... Dzogchen is completely beyond cause and result.
So Dzogchen is not about enlightenment (going beyond cause and effect)? Coz that's what I thought Buddhism was all about. Call me deluded or something but... :shrug:

Though this thread has been an interesting read, I have to admit that it seems like a bit of a "lad"-ish member measuring competition of the style: My rainbow body is bigger than yours! My complete enlightenment is more complete than yours! My master is more masterful than yours! ad nauseum...
:namaste:


Well now, your humility is humbler than ours. :lol:
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby adinatha » Fri May 13, 2011 6:06 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
We say different. The union of this and that is common of the Rime movement. We don't say union of anything. We don't rely on anything.



The Drugpa master, Gyalwa Yangongpa states in The Treasury of the Essential Meaning: The Stages of the Four Yogas of Mahāmudrā



Now then, first it is necessary to recognize “mahāmudra” or phyag rgya chen po. In the sutras and tantras of the Sugatas and the instructions of the siddhas of the past a sequence of four mudrās is taught, since mahāmudrā manifests independent on the three other mudrās. Here, [4/a] the sequence of those instructions, the stages of the three mudrās are complete with meaning by power of blessings. Since one is caused to recognize mahāmudra with a special method, it is an immediate path.

Now then “mahāmudra”: one person claims “Phyag is appearance, rgya is emptiness, chen po is union.” But this is a term for dharmamudra, not our term “mahāmudra.” All terms for clarity and emptiness are terms of samayamudrā. All terms of bliss and emptiness are terms for karmamudrā. Mahāmudra is the position of the Brahmin Saraha, whose position is that it is free from three conditions, beyond the four joys, and alone is distinct from luminous clarity. Since mahāmudrā does not depend on the condition of bliss, does not depend on the condition of clarity, and does not depend on the condition of non-conceptuality, it does not depend on the three conditions. From among the four joys, since the innate joy is demonstrated by the Guru, exists as it understood by the disciple, [4/b] it is an example wisdom with a demonstration and a demonstrator.

But mahāmudra cannot be shown by a Guru, and cannot be understood by a disciple. It is not soiled by experience and sensations, it is not corrupted by realization and certainty, it is not divided by view, meditation and conduct, it is not sectioned into a basis, path and result, all of these phenomena of appearance and existence, samsara and nirvana are neither removed or added, bound or freed, are fixed with an antidote. Recognition of and self-liberation into one’s own state is called “mahāmudrā.” Luminous clarity is without appearances and free from extremes but mahāmudra is fresh appearances and knowing (rig pa), and because proliferation is self-liberated it is different than luminous clarity.


This is the real mahāmudra.

BTW, this real mahāmudra is beyond so called "essence" mahāmudra since essence mahāmudra depends in an introduction.


Is the text above published in English somewhere? I would like to hunt down a copy. Wonderful!
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Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri May 13, 2011 6:51 pm

Namdrol wrote:There is no way to improve on something perfect already i.e. your primordial state. But there is something to do in terms of removing your ignorance of that fact. That is what I was trying to communicate with you. The difference between a buddha and sentient being is only recognition and integration with that state or not.

Dzogchen is not "a way of being" per se. It is not a "style". It is remaining in a state of knowledge about one's primordial state, that's all.

Dear Namdrol, I am not disagreeing with you but the large bit implies a doing, albeit not to gain something, any more than digging a mound of dirt off a pile of treasure does not mean you gain a treasure, but still a method. To remove, rather than to develop, still implies a doing. After that there is an abiding.

To recognise ones true nature also requires that one recognise ones flase concept of their "true" nature. When you draw a thorn from a wound the body reverts to its normal state, it does not develop into something else. Ignorance is the thorn, the method removes the thorn and the healed state is the abiding.

Or at least that is how it seems to me.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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