Mutated...

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Mutated...

Postby beautiful breath » Tue May 10, 2011 12:18 pm

Hi all,

Can someone explain the major differences that I see between Tibetan (I guess Mahayana generally) and the Theravada schools. From what I can see its pretty much accepted that the Theravadin Sutras are actually the words of Buddha - straight from the horses mough as it were. wheras many of the Tibetan texts seem so very far removed from the simple teachings he originally taught - are these teachings a 'new' form of Buddhism and a mutation of the original ones? I am thinking particularly of the Mahayana emphasis on Emptiness as a philosophy almost on its own and the meditational practices - ie. the massive differences between simple Satipatana.Vipassana and the colourful and complex practices in Tibetan buddhsim that seem to put more stuff in the mnd.

Cheers,

BB
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Re: Mutated...

Postby Astus » Tue May 10, 2011 12:31 pm

This book explains it neatly:

Image
Buddhist Thought: A Complete Introduction to the Indian Tradition by Paul Williams
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Mutated...

Postby beautiful breath » Tue May 10, 2011 12:41 pm

...don't have that one...what does it say :reading:
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Re: Mutated...

Postby Jikan » Tue May 10, 2011 3:23 pm

This should be you: :reading: ...if you want an answer to your question.

You can find the Williams book for under $20 US online.
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Re: Mutated...

Postby Mr. G » Tue May 10, 2011 3:26 pm

Astus wrote:This book explains it neatly:

Image
Buddhist Thought: A Complete Introduction to the Indian Tradition by Paul Williams


2nd this
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Mutated...

Postby pueraeternus » Tue May 10, 2011 3:31 pm

When I set out to lead humanity along my Golden Path I promised a lesson their bones would remember. I know a profound pattern humans deny with words even while their actions affirm it. They say they seek security and quiet, conditions they call peace. Even as they speak, they create seeds of turmoil and violence.

- Leto II, the God Emperor
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Re: Mutated...

Postby Astus » Tue May 10, 2011 3:44 pm

beautiful breath wrote:...don't have that one...what does it say :reading:


The reason why a whole book is recommended because the development of Buddhism from the earliest texts to Tibetan Buddhism covers about 1500 years, actually the time Buddhism existed in India. Just think about summing up the history of European poetry from Virgil to Shakespeare. Too many details to cover in a single post. Perhaps if you can make the question more specific...
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Mutated...

Postby beautiful breath » Tue May 10, 2011 3:50 pm

"...buy a book..."

:-)

Ok...
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Re: Mutated...

Postby Mr. G » Tue May 10, 2011 3:50 pm

beautiful breath wrote:"...buy a book..."

:-)

Ok...


Or library :smile:
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Mutated...

Postby Pero » Tue May 10, 2011 4:00 pm

mr. gordo wrote:
beautiful breath wrote:"...buy a book..."

:-)

Ok...


Or library :smile:


Now come on Gordo, I don't know how much libraries cost these days but I'm sure they aren't exactly cheap. :tongue:
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Re: Mutated...

Postby Astus » Tue May 10, 2011 4:02 pm

"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Mutated...

Postby Jikan » Tue May 10, 2011 4:21 pm

beautiful breath wrote:"...buy a book..."

:-)

Ok...


Or borrow it. The point is to read it and turn it over in your mind.
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Re: Mutated...

Postby ground » Wed May 11, 2011 4:19 am

beautiful breath wrote:"...buy a book..."

:-)

Ok...


Which may also hint at one of the main differences between Tibetan and/or Mahayana on the one hand and Theravada on the other hand: the number of written pages about the subject.

Samsara may end when there is nothing left to be read (or heard).

kind regards
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Re: Mutated...

Postby beautiful breath » Wed May 11, 2011 10:21 am

...I'll buy the book - but in the interim no taker for shedding some light on this for me? :tantrum:
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Re: Mutated...

Postby Mr. G » Wed May 11, 2011 11:57 am

    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Mutated...

Postby Indrajala » Wed May 11, 2011 12:25 pm

beautiful breath wrote:...I'll buy the book - but in the interim no taker for shedding some light on this for me? :tantrum:


The primary difference in that in Tibetan Buddhism one seeks Buddhahood out of compassion for sentient beings. One swears to take as many lifetimes as possible to achieve it.

In Theravada the goal is Arhatship, which is cessation rebirth. One does not voluntarily take rebirth to aid other beings.
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Re: Mutated...

Postby conebeckham » Wed May 11, 2011 4:41 pm

Mr. Gordo's link is good, Beautiful Breath.....Berzin, of course, comes from a Tibetan-centered viewpoint, but I think it's a fair synopsis he provides.

However, in his quick summary page: http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/study/comparison_buddhist_traditions/general/survey_basic_forms_buddhism.html

-I think you could get the wrong impression.

Those things which seem "corrupt," i.e. ritualized practices, deities, etc., need to be understood from an inner point of view. They are, in fact, nothing more than methods for the same general purpose as any meditation technique.

Any practice which takes into account the Four Nobles Truths, and the Four Seals, can be seen as Dharma. Madhyamika philosophy, emptiness, and Vajrayana practices all fall within this realm.

The four seals are--
1. All conditioned things are impermanent
2. All emotions are of the nature of suffering
3. All phenomena are empty, without inherent existence
4. Nirvana is beyond extremes

And the Four Noble Truths, perhaps more well-known, are-
1. Life is suffering/samsara
2.Attachment is the cause of suffering/samsara
3.Cessation of Samsara/suffering (Via freedom from Attachment) is possible
4. The Path to Freedom is the Noble Eightfold Path
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Re: Mutated...

Postby ground » Thu May 12, 2011 3:23 am



Although still having the mark of being presented from a traditions perspective I think this one is better than Berzin's:

The Tree of Enlightenment

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