The other way around too ... think about it!heart wrote: ... Choosing what seems like just an easy path is not so clever.
/magnus
Sönam
The other way around too ... think about it!heart wrote: ... Choosing what seems like just an easy path is not so clever.
/magnus
Hi Sönam, I am saying that I don't believe in choosing a teacher based on some fantasy about how your path is supposed to be (easy or difficult) but instead try to find a teacher that you actually connect with.Sönam wrote:The other way around too ... think about it!heart wrote: ... Choosing what seems like just an easy path is not so clever.
/magnus
Sönam
honestly Magnus, I don't think anyone has an "à priori" about how his path should be and then choose the teacher that corresponds ... but of course I agree about the connection ... that's why I do not think that one really choose. It happens that's all.heart wrote: Hi Sönam, I am saying that I don't believe in choosing a teacher based on some fantasy about how your path is supposed to be (easy or difficult) but instead try to find a teacher that you actually connect with.
/magnus
Jinzang wrote:Pardon me for stating the obvious, but:Yes, your Drikung Kagyu teachers.
And my Dzogchen teachers.
Dzogchen is an important part of Drikung Kagyu through the Yangzab cycle of termas. And there are qualified Dzogchen teachers within the Drikung. So it has no reason to denigrate Dzogchen or elevate Mahamudra. Both are a part of Drikung.
I don't disagree with that in general, however you seem to be implying that a path with ngondro is difficult and a path without it is easy.heart wrote:What I am trying to say is that you should you choose your Guru on the base of how clearly and deeply he/she can show your faults because then the path will have both depth and heart. For sure it is a karmic connection I am talking about here. Choosing what seems like just an easy path is not so clever.Pero wrote:Hmm I'm sorry but I don't see how that's an answer to my question.heart wrote: If your Guru can't cut through your ignorance his teachings are just words. You need a killer.
/magnus
heart wrote:What I am trying to say is that you should you choose your Guru on the base of how clearly and deeply he/she can show your faults because then the path will have both depth and heart. For sure it is a karmic connection I am talking about here. Choosing what seems like just an easy path is not so clever.Pero wrote:Hmm I'm sorry but I don't see how that's an answer to my question.heart wrote: If your Guru can't cut through your ignorance his teachings are just words. You need a killer.
/magnus
pemachophel wrote:
My point is that you should try to find a Teacher who completely sees you inside and out, knows all your good and bad points, knows all the ways you habitually con yourself, knows all the ways your habitually protect and aggrandize your ego, who can and does dismantle your kleshas with totally compassionate but also totally unwavering ruthlessness. When you find this kind of Teacher, then you simply do what the Teacher tells you to do.
Not at all, I am just saying that our idea of the path is not the real path. So our fantasy of the path is not a good criteria for choosing a teacher. So forget about the Ngondro and find a a good teacher that manage to get under your skin is what I am saying. There is no saying what he/she might have you do.Pero wrote: I don't disagree with that in general, however you seem to be implying that a path with ngondro is difficult and a path without it is easy.
two cents made of gold, thanks Bob!pemachophel wrote:
Again, just my two cents.
In an ultimate sense thats true. In real life: unless you have that trust in your Guru, who also has the qualities describes by Pemachopel, you easily just stray from the path and become a great meditator with an equally great ego.Namdrol wrote:pemachophel wrote:
My point is that you should try to find a Teacher who completely sees you inside and out, knows all your good and bad points, knows all the ways you habitually con yourself, knows all the ways your habitually protect and aggrandize your ego, who can and does dismantle your kleshas with totally compassionate but also totally unwavering ruthlessness. When you find this kind of Teacher, then you simply do what the Teacher tells you to do.
2 more cents: the only person who dismantle your afflictions is you. No guru can do that for you. The best they can do is be a mirror.
N
This is my view:Dhondrub wrote:In an ultimate sense thats true. In real life: unless you have that trust in your Guru, who also has the qualities describes by Pemachopel, you easily just stray from the path and become a great meditator with an equally great ego.Namdrol wrote:pemachophel wrote:
My point is that you should try to find a Teacher who completely sees you inside and out, knows all your good and bad points, knows all the ways you habitually con yourself, knows all the ways your habitually protect and aggrandize your ego, who can and does dismantle your kleshas with totally compassionate but also totally unwavering ruthlessness. When you find this kind of Teacher, then you simply do what the Teacher tells you to do.
2 more cents: the only person who dismantle your afflictions is you. No guru can do that for you. The best they can do is be a mirror.
N
Ahh, got it, sorry. I think you and Pema Chopel make a good point, however I also agree with Namdrol's view. For me personally, I think I have never felt any teacher get under my skin in the usual sense, which implies something pretty uncomfortable. In general it's more the normal people that can sometimes get under my skin and after that it's all about one's awareness.heart wrote:Not at all, I am just saying that our idea of the path is not the real path. So our fantasy of the path is not a good criteria for choosing a teacher. So forget about the Ngondro and find a a good teacher that manage to get under your skin is what I am saying. There is no saying what he/she might have you do.Pero wrote: I don't disagree with that in general, however you seem to be implying that a path with ngondro is difficult and a path without it is easy.
pemachophel wrote: I agree with Magnus that the single most important thing in choosing a Guru/being chosen by the Guru is the feeling of a deep, heart-felt connection which leads to true faith and devotion.
Again, just my two cents.
Heruka wrote:pemachophel wrote: I agree with Magnus that the single most important thing in choosing a Guru/being chosen by the Guru is the feeling of a deep, heart-felt connection which leads to true faith and devotion.
Again, just my two cents.
and what when the honeymoon is over and the electric buzz fades away?
we dont pick a teacher because we get a good buzz when we are around them.
Oh, a mirror is good enough Namdrol.Namdrol wrote: 2 more cents: the only person who dismantle your afflictions is you. No guru can do that for you. The best they can do is be a mirror.
N
Well, the counter of this among high Kagyu lamas is that the realization of Dzogchen masters is rather small compared to the realization and activities of the great Kagyu masters. There's always another side, and it's not universally accepted that Dzogchen is the highest or the equal of Mahamudra. Not so much because the teachings are better or worse, but because the samayas and the power of Kagyu lineages are supreme.Namdrol wrote:Jinzang wrote:Pardon me for stating the obvious, but:Yes, your Drikung Kagyu teachers.
And my Dzogchen teachers.
Dzogchen is an important part of Drikung Kagyu through the Yangzab cycle of termas. And there are qualified Dzogchen teachers within the Drikung. So it has no reason to denigrate Dzogchen or elevate Mahamudra. Both are a part of Drikung.
Hi Jinzang:
I also have Drikiung teachers such as Gyalpo Rinpoche and Traga Rinpoche. He and Traga Rinpoche are the premier qualified Dzogchen teachers within Drikung, IMO.
Dzogchen may be a part of Drikung, but it is generally encased in the overall Drikung approach. This is not a bad thing, per se -- that depends on the student. However there is a need among Sarma teachers to make their completion stage practices equivalent on some level with Dzogchen teachings -- we see this in the writings of Sakya Pandita, we see this with HH Dalai Lama's teachings, etc.
Side note: Yangzab, in the Tibetan context, largely considered an "Ani practice", and was mostly practiced in nunneries. Yangzab is a pure Nyingma cycle. The best commentary on Yangzab was not written by a Drikung master, it was written by one of Dudjom Lingpa's sons for which Traga Rinpoche gave the transmission.
Yangthang Tulku, when giving the preliminary practice section for Yeshe Lama many years ago, remarked that for Mahāmudra you have to be very smart, because there are not so many methods. Dzogchen was easier (hence better as easier is always better) because it had many methods.
You may not like this fact, but indeed there are many Dzogchen teachings that assert that Dzogchen is superior to Mahāmudra, identified in this context as the view that arises from anuyoga.
You do not have to believe it. But do not make the mistake of thinking that the Dzogchen tradition does not hold itself as unique and superior, for it does.
The point of my saying this is not to make other people feel bad. The point of my saying this is let people understand that while it may be the case that in the Kagyu schools there is an general consensus that Mahamudra and Dzogchen are just different ways to get to the same result, this consensus is not shared by the Nyingma school or by the textual system of Dzogchen. I am not suggesting that one must agree with the Dzogchen POV, merely that it exists.
N
Yes, and the Sakyapas say that both the Kagyus and the Nyingmapas exaggerate their masters realizations, blah blah blah, and that the Samaya of Sakya lineages is the purest, blah blah blah...adinatha wrote:
Well, the counter of this among high Kagyu lamas is that the realization of Dzogchen masters is rather small compared to the realization and activities of the great Kagyu masters. There's always another side, and it's not universally accepted that Dzogchen is the highest or the equal of Mahamudra. Not so much because the teachings are better or worse, but because the samayas and the power of Kagyu lineages are supreme.
Namdrol wrote:
A guru's job is not to deal with our neurotic bullshit. It is amazing that they put up with any of it at all. A Guru's job is simply to give teachings for our own liberation.