Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

Moderator: Tibetan Buddhism moderators

Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

Postby Sönam » Mon May 09, 2011 10:27 am

heart wrote:... Choosing what seems like just an easy path is not so clever.

/magnus


The other way around too ... think about it!

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
User avatar
Sönam
 
Posts: 1958
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
Location: France

Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

Postby heart » Mon May 09, 2011 1:53 pm

Sönam wrote:
heart wrote:... Choosing what seems like just an easy path is not so clever.

/magnus


The other way around too ... think about it!

Sönam


Hi Sönam, I am saying that I don't believe in choosing a teacher based on some fantasy about how your path is supposed to be (easy or difficult) but instead try to find a teacher that you actually connect with.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 3080
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

Postby Sönam » Mon May 09, 2011 2:01 pm

heart wrote:Hi Sönam, I am saying that I don't believe in choosing a teacher based on some fantasy about how your path is supposed to be (easy or difficult) but instead try to find a teacher that you actually connect with.

/magnus


honestly Magnus, I don't think anyone has an "à priori" about how his path should be and then choose the teacher that corresponds ... but of course I agree about the connection ... that's why I do not think that one really choose. It happens that's all.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
User avatar
Sönam
 
Posts: 1958
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
Location: France

Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

Postby Malcolm » Mon May 09, 2011 2:09 pm

Jinzang wrote:
Yes, your Drikung Kagyu teachers.

And my Dzogchen teachers.


Pardon me for stating the obvious, but:

Dzogchen is an important part of Drikung Kagyu through the Yangzab cycle of termas. And there are qualified Dzogchen teachers within the Drikung. So it has no reason to denigrate Dzogchen or elevate Mahamudra. Both are a part of Drikung.



Hi Jinzang:

I also have Drikiung teachers such as Gyalpo Rinpoche and Traga Rinpoche. He and Traga Rinpoche are the premier qualified Dzogchen teachers within Drikung, IMO.

Dzogchen may be a part of Drikung, but it is generally encased in the overall Drikung approach. This is not a bad thing, per se -- that depends on the student. However there is a need among Sarma teachers to make their completion stage practices equivalent on some level with Dzogchen teachings -- we see this in the writings of Sakya Pandita, we see this with HH Dalai Lama's teachings, etc.

Side note: Yangzab, in the Tibetan context, largely considered an "Ani practice", and was mostly practiced in nunneries. Yangzab is a pure Nyingma cycle. The best commentary on Yangzab was not written by a Drikung master, it was written by one of Dudjom Lingpa's sons for which Traga Rinpoche gave the transmission.

Yangthang Tulku, when giving the preliminary practice section for Yeshe Lama many years ago, remarked that for Mahāmudra you have to be very smart, because there are not so many methods. Dzogchen was easier (hence better as easier is always better) because it had many methods.

You may not like this fact, but indeed there are many Dzogchen teachings that assert that Dzogchen is superior to Mahāmudra, identified in this context as the view that arises from anuyoga.

You do not have to believe it. But do not make the mistake of thinking that the Dzogchen tradition does not hold itself as unique and superior, for it does.

The point of my saying this is not to make other people feel bad. The point of my saying this is let people understand that while it may be the case that in the Kagyu schools there is an general consensus that Mahamudra and Dzogchen are just different ways to get to the same result, this consensus is not shared by the Nyingma school or by the textual system of Dzogchen. I am not suggesting that one must agree with the Dzogchen POV, merely that it exists.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 11738
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

Postby Pero » Mon May 09, 2011 2:11 pm

heart wrote:
Pero wrote:
heart wrote:If your Guru can't cut through your ignorance his teachings are just words. You need a killer.

Hmm I'm sorry but I don't see how that's an answer to my question.


What I am trying to say is that you should you choose your Guru on the base of how clearly and deeply he/she can show your faults because then the path will have both depth and heart. For sure it is a karmic connection I am talking about here. Choosing what seems like just an easy path is not so clever.

/magnus

I don't disagree with that in general, however you seem to be implying that a path with ngondro is difficult and a path without it is easy.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
Pero
 
Posts: 1841
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:54 pm

Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

Postby Malcolm » Mon May 09, 2011 2:16 pm

heart wrote:
Pero wrote:
heart wrote:If your Guru can't cut through your ignorance his teachings are just words. You need a killer.

Hmm I'm sorry but I don't see how that's an answer to my question.


What I am trying to say is that you should you choose your Guru on the base of how clearly and deeply he/she can show your faults because then the path will have both depth and heart. For sure it is a karmic connection I am talking about here. Choosing what seems like just an easy path is not so clever.

/magnus



This is sort of a Kadampa view.

We choose Vajrayāna because it is better, faster, easier. Then among Vajrayāna teachings, we choose better, faster, easier. This is in line with Triptikamālā's statement:

"Although the goal is the same, since it is unconfused,
with many methods, not difficult,
and mastered by those of sharp faculties,
Mantrayāna is superior."


There is no reason to choose a teacher other than to gain liberation as fast as possible.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 11738
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

Postby pemachophel » Mon May 09, 2011 3:59 pm

Sorry I haven't responded sooner. The following response is just my opinion based in turn on my experience.

When choosing a Guru, I think it's best to check out several and then judge these based on the criteria in such texts as Words of My Perfect Teacher. However, I agree with Magnus that the single most important thing in choosing a Guru/being chosen by the Guru is the feeling of a deep, heart-felt connection which leads to true faith and devotion. When I started out on my spiritual journey, I had every intention of becoming a Kagyud. That's what I thought was right for me. I wanted to do tummo, lots of tsa-lung, live in caves, eat nettles -- the whole nine yards. However, I met a Nyingma Drzogchen practitioner who, just on seeing Him, rocked my mind to its very depths. There was simply no question that we were karmically destined to be Teacher and student. So even though I had not intended to become Nyingma, that's what happened. Even though I had not intended to remain a layman, that's what happened. Even though I had not intended to return to the U.S. (from India), that's what happened. When He said here's a special Dzogchen ngondro revealed by H.H. Dudjom Rinpoche specifically for His students in the West, do it, my only question was how many days should it take to complete. When I completed that and He gave me the Longchen Nyingthig ngondro according to Paltrul Rinpoche's tradition and said do it, I did.

My point is that you should try to find a Teacher who completely sees you inside and out, knows all your good and bad points, knows all the ways you habitually con yourself, knows all the ways your habitually protect and aggrandize your ego, who can and does dismantle your kleshas with totally compassionate but also totally unwavering ruthlessness. When you find this kind of Teacher, then you simply do what the Teacher tells you to do.

As for practicing the Vajrayana/Dzogchen because it is faster and easier, I think most on this forum agree that the heart of that is Guru yoga and that includes doing what your Guru tells you to do. There's nothing higher than following the Guru's instructions as best you can. This is why I said choosing a Teacher based on whether He/She requires one ngondro, several ngondro, or none was not the best criterion. It's about heart. It's about faith. It's about connection. That's what I would recommend any would-be chela look for above and beyond all outer forms and trappings.

Again, just my two cents.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
pemachophel
 
Posts: 564
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 9:19 pm
Location: Lafayette, CO

Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

Postby Malcolm » Mon May 09, 2011 4:23 pm

pemachophel wrote:
My point is that you should try to find a Teacher who completely sees you inside and out, knows all your good and bad points, knows all the ways you habitually con yourself, knows all the ways your habitually protect and aggrandize your ego, who can and does dismantle your kleshas with totally compassionate but also totally unwavering ruthlessness. When you find this kind of Teacher, then you simply do what the Teacher tells you to do.



2 more cents: the only person who dismantle your afflictions is you. No guru can do that for you. The best they can do is be a mirror.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 11738
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

Postby heart » Mon May 09, 2011 4:51 pm

Pero wrote:I don't disagree with that in general, however you seem to be implying that a path with ngondro is difficult and a path without it is easy.


Not at all, I am just saying that our idea of the path is not the real path. So our fantasy of the path is not a good criteria for choosing a teacher. So forget about the Ngondro and find a a good teacher that manage to get under your skin is what I am saying. There is no saying what he/she might have you do.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 3080
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

Postby heart » Mon May 09, 2011 5:00 pm

pemachophel wrote:
Again, just my two cents.


two cents made of gold, thanks Bob!

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 3080
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

Postby Dhondrub » Mon May 09, 2011 5:16 pm

Namdrol wrote:
pemachophel wrote:
My point is that you should try to find a Teacher who completely sees you inside and out, knows all your good and bad points, knows all the ways you habitually con yourself, knows all the ways your habitually protect and aggrandize your ego, who can and does dismantle your kleshas with totally compassionate but also totally unwavering ruthlessness. When you find this kind of Teacher, then you simply do what the Teacher tells you to do.



2 more cents: the only person who dismantle your afflictions is you. No guru can do that for you. The best they can do is be a mirror.

N


In an ultimate sense thats true. In real life: unless you have that trust in your Guru, who also has the qualities describes by Pemachopel, you easily just stray from the path and become a great meditator with an equally great ego.
Dhondrub
 
Posts: 201
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:05 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

Postby Malcolm » Mon May 09, 2011 5:34 pm

Dhondrub wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
pemachophel wrote:
My point is that you should try to find a Teacher who completely sees you inside and out, knows all your good and bad points, knows all the ways you habitually con yourself, knows all the ways your habitually protect and aggrandize your ego, who can and does dismantle your kleshas with totally compassionate but also totally unwavering ruthlessness. When you find this kind of Teacher, then you simply do what the Teacher tells you to do.



2 more cents: the only person who dismantle your afflictions is you. No guru can do that for you. The best they can do is be a mirror.

N


In an ultimate sense thats true. In real life: unless you have that trust in your Guru, who also has the qualities describes by Pemachopel, you easily just stray from the path and become a great meditator with an equally great ego.


This is my view:

In a relative sense that is true. Everything about your path is up to you. Your path, your responsibility. No?

If you want certain teachings, then you fearlessly seek a guru who will impart them to you. If you have to go through a hundred gurus, then you do. When you meet a guru who will give you the teachings for which you yearn -- your job is to put them into practice. It is not disrespectful to your other gurus to move on until you find the one who give you the teachings you desire. As you practice more, you learn more, and often you have to move on to find teachings you need. This is normal. Sometimes you have to get teachings from some other teacher to make sense of the teachings you originally got. Etc. But the point is you must never be passive. When you understand more or less perfectly the teaching you desire, then you must put it into practice. You have no excuse of you don't.

A guru's job is not to deal with our neurotic bullshit. It is amazing that they put up with any of it at all. A Guru's job is simply to give teachings for our own liberation.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 11738
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

Postby Pero » Mon May 09, 2011 7:04 pm

heart wrote:
Pero wrote:I don't disagree with that in general, however you seem to be implying that a path with ngondro is difficult and a path without it is easy.


Not at all, I am just saying that our idea of the path is not the real path. So our fantasy of the path is not a good criteria for choosing a teacher. So forget about the Ngondro and find a a good teacher that manage to get under your skin is what I am saying. There is no saying what he/she might have you do.


Ahh, got it, sorry. I think you and Pema Chopel make a good point, however I also agree with Namdrol's view. For me personally, I think I have never felt any teacher get under my skin in the usual sense, which implies something pretty uncomfortable. In general it's more the normal people that can sometimes get under my skin and after that it's all about one's awareness.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
Pero
 
Posts: 1841
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:54 pm

Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

Postby Heruka » Mon May 09, 2011 8:03 pm

pemachophel wrote: I agree with Magnus that the single most important thing in choosing a Guru/being chosen by the Guru is the feeling of a deep, heart-felt connection which leads to true faith and devotion.

Again, just my two cents.



and what when the honeymoon is over and the electric buzz fades away?

we dont pick a teacher because we get a good buzz when we are around them.
Heruka
 
Posts: 1069
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:34 am

Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

Postby heart » Mon May 09, 2011 8:31 pm

Heruka wrote:
pemachophel wrote: I agree with Magnus that the single most important thing in choosing a Guru/being chosen by the Guru is the feeling of a deep, heart-felt connection which leads to true faith and devotion.

Again, just my two cents.



and what when the honeymoon is over and the electric buzz fades away?

we dont pick a teacher because we get a good buzz when we are around them.



Oh man, it isn't like looking for a girlfriend. :smile: I never said you should look for a good buzz, where did you pick that up?

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 3080
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

Postby heart » Mon May 09, 2011 8:46 pm

Namdrol wrote:2 more cents: the only person who dismantle your afflictions is you. No guru can do that for you. The best they can do is be a mirror.

N


Oh, a mirror is good enough Namdrol.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 3080
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

Postby adinatha » Mon May 09, 2011 10:03 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Jinzang wrote:
Yes, your Drikung Kagyu teachers.

And my Dzogchen teachers.


Pardon me for stating the obvious, but:

Dzogchen is an important part of Drikung Kagyu through the Yangzab cycle of termas. And there are qualified Dzogchen teachers within the Drikung. So it has no reason to denigrate Dzogchen or elevate Mahamudra. Both are a part of Drikung.



Hi Jinzang:

I also have Drikiung teachers such as Gyalpo Rinpoche and Traga Rinpoche. He and Traga Rinpoche are the premier qualified Dzogchen teachers within Drikung, IMO.

Dzogchen may be a part of Drikung, but it is generally encased in the overall Drikung approach. This is not a bad thing, per se -- that depends on the student. However there is a need among Sarma teachers to make their completion stage practices equivalent on some level with Dzogchen teachings -- we see this in the writings of Sakya Pandita, we see this with HH Dalai Lama's teachings, etc.

Side note: Yangzab, in the Tibetan context, largely considered an "Ani practice", and was mostly practiced in nunneries. Yangzab is a pure Nyingma cycle. The best commentary on Yangzab was not written by a Drikung master, it was written by one of Dudjom Lingpa's sons for which Traga Rinpoche gave the transmission.

Yangthang Tulku, when giving the preliminary practice section for Yeshe Lama many years ago, remarked that for Mahāmudra you have to be very smart, because there are not so many methods. Dzogchen was easier (hence better as easier is always better) because it had many methods.

You may not like this fact, but indeed there are many Dzogchen teachings that assert that Dzogchen is superior to Mahāmudra, identified in this context as the view that arises from anuyoga.

You do not have to believe it. But do not make the mistake of thinking that the Dzogchen tradition does not hold itself as unique and superior, for it does.

The point of my saying this is not to make other people feel bad. The point of my saying this is let people understand that while it may be the case that in the Kagyu schools there is an general consensus that Mahamudra and Dzogchen are just different ways to get to the same result, this consensus is not shared by the Nyingma school or by the textual system of Dzogchen. I am not suggesting that one must agree with the Dzogchen POV, merely that it exists.

N


Well, the counter of this among high Kagyu lamas is that the realization of Dzogchen masters is rather small compared to the realization and activities of the great Kagyu masters. There's always another side, and it's not universally accepted that Dzogchen is the highest or the equal of Mahamudra. Not so much because the teachings are better or worse, but because the samayas and the power of Kagyu lineages are supreme.
CAW!
User avatar
adinatha
 
Posts: 886
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:07 am

Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

Postby Malcolm » Mon May 09, 2011 10:22 pm

adinatha wrote:
Well, the counter of this among high Kagyu lamas is that the realization of Dzogchen masters is rather small compared to the realization and activities of the great Kagyu masters. There's always another side, and it's not universally accepted that Dzogchen is the highest or the equal of Mahamudra. Not so much because the teachings are better or worse, but because the samayas and the power of Kagyu lineages are supreme.


Yes, and the Sakyapas say that both the Kagyus and the Nyingmapas exaggerate their masters realizations, blah blah blah, and that the Samaya of Sakya lineages is the purest, blah blah blah...

I base my understanding on what these teachings actually say. Not on gossip and competition.

So, having received the Mahāmudra teachings of both Kagyu (Karma and Drikung) and Sakya (Lamdre/Yogini) and also many Dzogchen teachings, I decided for myself that Dzogchen was best, not because someone told me it was best, but because there are too many special features of Dzogchen that are unique and cannot be found elsewhere.

Nevertheless, all of these Vajrayāna teachings are profound.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 11738
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

Postby username » Mon May 09, 2011 10:34 pm

ChNNR says don't discuss secret Dzogchen teachings online in my name or debate people of lower vehicles with Dzogchen and let them be if you are visiting such a center. But Dzogchen view and methods some of which are unique as well highest fruits, all like the vulture's feathers supreme above all is not negotiable but a fact stated by the highest and various emanations of Dharmakaya at all levels. ChNNR says in the biggest cities we do publicity and only a few hundred come so publicity doesn't work like you think. But those few that come have past life karmic connections with ati or are ready or other complex reasons and all are of the highest capacity. So 'our' publicity works in it's mysterious ways and should continue as widely as possible without focusing on quantity as simpler minds target in order to catch the attention of the relevant few. This might be another of those means. No one is stopping anyone here so these are sour grapes.All I see is people's queries answered or people referencing their stated positions or defending the great terton against subtle and not so subtle attacks by several in the last few weeks.

Pretty tame though and well within the normal bounds of debate. And nowhere near being a chaotic ego attempting to make novel schisms, directly attacking Dzogchen termas/tantras' validities and their stated self-supreme positions by the highest deities as a Dzogchenpa(!!!) and clearly enjoying making people fight each other but that is taken care of with it's own self defense mechanisms and doesn't concern us.

Stopping others from going to other teachers as has historically been the norm? To justify oneself's fantasy emotional blackmail account with a guru? Good gurus know this well but you have to get out of this by yourself hence their usual silence on it. Fantasy Loyalty Scheme Coupons? Ego oriented futile personal mindgames? Tears in the rain.If progress is wanted we need to abandon mindgames and ask ourselves honest brave questions like Pero did but never got an answer. We have to constantly ask ourselves what is 'my main current question' I am currently running away from?

The main problems I see stopping myself realizing my real nature of mind seem to be being too tense, thinking too much non-stop and looking for rigpa.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
username
 
Posts: 759
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:23 pm

Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?

Postby Heruka » Mon May 09, 2011 10:56 pm

Namdrol wrote:

A guru's job is not to deal with our neurotic bullshit. It is amazing that they put up with any of it at all. A Guru's job is simply to give teachings for our own liberation.



Yes and the best way to serve your teachers is to implement what they have imparted to you as honestly and the best you can. That pleases the guru more than bowing and scraping, gifts and lofty words of praise.
Heruka
 
Posts: 1069
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:34 am

PreviousNext

Return to Dzogchen

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 7 guests

>