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 Post subject: lacking the capacity
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 8:06 am 
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when one knows that there is time to go back to more gradual path? if few years passed and there is no real recognition, would it be wise to consider oneself as not having high capacity and try to find more gradual teacher? I remember someone was writing on e-sangha that some people stick with DC for too long without any progress. PS it is not so easy to check with the teacher as there are thousand of students.

Thank you!

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Disdaining the lower and unable to grasp the higher,
talking of emptiness, such a person will neglect cause and effect,
mouthing on about the view while in a state of self-deception.
It would be better to concentrate on the gradual path.

"Creation and Completion" Jamgon Kongtrul


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 Post subject: Re: lacking the capacity
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 8:10 am 
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rai wrote:
when one knows that there is time to go back to more gradual path? if few years passed and there is no real recognition, would it be wise to consider oneself as not having high capacity and try to find more gradual teacher? I remember someone was writing on e-sangha that some people stick with DC for too long without any progress. PS it is not so easy to check with the teacher as there are thousand of students.

Thank you!


Maybe just try a teacher that it is more easy to have a personal discussion with. Anyway, even if it feels impossible it is normally not impossible to see even the most busy teachers but it takes some guts and strength.

/magnus

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"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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 Post subject: Re: lacking the capacity
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 11:44 am 
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rai wrote:
when one knows that there is time to go back to more gradual path? if few years passed and there is no real recognition, would it be wise to consider oneself as not having high capacity and try to find more gradual teacher? I remember someone was writing on e-sangha that some people stick with DC for too long without any progress. PS it is not so easy to check with the teacher as there are thousand of students.

Thank you!


I went from Vajrayana to Dzogchen back to Vajrayana. Don't come down on yourself because your "low capacity". Ask yourself if you enjoy your current practice and if you see a positive effect of your practice in daily life. I readily admit I am "low capacity" :smile:

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 Post subject: Re: lacking the capacity
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 8:49 pm 
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mr. gordo wrote:
rai wrote:
when one knows that there is time to go back to more gradual path? if few years passed and there is no real recognition, would it be wise to consider oneself as not having high capacity and try to find more gradual teacher? I remember someone was writing on e-sangha that some people stick with DC for too long without any progress. PS it is not so easy to check with the teacher as there are thousand of students.

Thank you!


I went from Vajrayana to Dzogchen back to Vajrayana. Don't come down on yourself because your "low capacity". Ask yourself if you enjoy your current practice and if you see a positive effect of your practice in daily life. I readily admit I am "low capacity" :smile:


Me 2, and its had a much better affect on my mind and life, and some of the dzogpa chenpo stuff actually makes more sense now.

--another 'low-cap'

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Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?


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 Post subject: Re: lacking the capacity
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 8:51 pm 
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rai wrote:
when one knows that there is time to go back to more gradual path? if few years passed and there is no real recognition, would it be wise to consider oneself as not having high capacity and try to find more gradual teacher? I remember someone was writing on e-sangha that some people stick with DC for too long without any progress. PS it is not so easy to check with the teacher as there are thousand of students.

Thank you!



Capacity depends on personal interest and diligence -- nothing more.

N

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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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 Post subject: Re: lacking the capacity
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 8:51 pm 
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If there's no one to one relationship, it's not a relationship. For DC you need a relationship.

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CAW!


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 Post subject: Re: lacking the capacity
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 9:08 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
rai wrote:
when one knows that there is time to go back to more gradual path? if few years passed and there is no real recognition, would it be wise to consider oneself as not having high capacity and try to find more gradual teacher? I remember someone was writing on e-sangha that some people stick with DC for too long without any progress. PS it is not so easy to check with the teacher as there are thousand of students.

Thank you!



Capacity depends on personal interest and diligence -- nothing more.

N


Oh, I thought it was based on the intelligence of the practitioner to grasp the teachings. Thanks for the clarification.

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 Post subject: Re: lacking the capacity
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 10:04 pm 
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We are told Trekcho is basically relaxing body, speech (all energies) and mind and their various levels as one vajra with a central thigle ( of guru yoga). And with that letting all thoughts, sense inputs and surrounding world just flow through automatically with immediate observing and recognition of their type, without engaging or blocking. Sometimes desiring something or looking for it or at it's signs is the worst thing so not looking for it might help as stated in some Dzogchen tantras. There are other points, it might be working in the deep undercurrents. It helps in future lifetimes and bardo too. ChNNR says those who receive Dzogchen transmissions have the highest capacity on this earth. That means several tens of thousands under various masters from 6+ billion. He also says the least it does apart from other benefits is that in the long run one gets more relaxed if nothing else. We are also told when it starts to work very seriously, different obstacles and past lives' karmas and trials come up. But they are much preferred to other inevitable alternative scenarios over future lifetimes. In such hard times subtle clingings have to purged. However they will pass and we are told the best refuge at such hard times is the guru(s)'s vast state which is in our heart center anyway, inseparable from Padmasambhava and his two main consorts. There is no easy way out for any sentient being.

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Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes


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 Post subject: Re: lacking the capacity
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 10:53 pm 
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mr. gordo wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
rai wrote:
when one knows that there is time to go back to more gradual path? if few years passed and there is no real recognition, would it be wise to consider oneself as not having high capacity and try to find more gradual teacher? I remember someone was writing on e-sangha that some people stick with DC for too long without any progress. PS it is not so easy to check with the teacher as there are thousand of students.

Thank you!



Capacity depends on personal interest and diligence -- nothing more.

N


Oh, I thought it was based on the intelligence of the practitioner to grasp the teachings. Thanks for the clarification.


Nope, it is based solely on your karmic connection with the teachings. If you have that, then you have capacity -- whether it is high, low or medium capacity depends solely on your efforts and interests.

N

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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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 Post subject: Re: lacking the capacity
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 4:19 am 
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My dzogchen teachers have never taught it as anything outside of the lamrim.
Well, better put: the lamrim is contextualized by dzogchen, and so the idea of having to "leave" dzogchen practice to do some other aspect of dharma practice, whether bodhicitta, kye rim or trulkor... just doesn't make sense.
I'm trying to come up with an appropriate analogy, but can't.
Whenever you find yourself reifying appearances, practice your yidam. This doesn't mean you're somehow "cheating" on your dzogchen teacher.


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 Post subject: Re: lacking the capacity
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 4:33 am 
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adinatha wrote:
If there's no one to one relationship, it's not a relationship. For DC you need a relationship.


im sorry, but this is some personal arrived at idea. i do not agree at all, and it feels like this is not a proper understanding at all.

again sorry to call you out on this but you need to expand on this train of thought, before others buy a ticket to ride on this train of Consequence

:namaste:


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 Post subject: Re: lacking the capacity
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 7:01 am 
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Bardor Tulku Rinpoche: The importance of karmic connection in the recognition of mind's nature



Similarly we are often told for Dzogchenpas it is more effective (not the only way though) to connect with one's previously karmically connected masters as well as relevant terma cycles in the current lifetime, both for recognition and progress potentials. Also in Dzogchen after receiving the lineage's Direct Introduction to the nature of mind and if not successful initially, masters often give methods so one can recognize rigpa even on one's own. So there are many options.

Sarva Mangalam

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Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes


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 Post subject: Re: lacking the capacity
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 11:35 am 
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Yontan wrote:
My dzogchen teachers have never taught it as anything outside of the lamrim.
Well, better put: the lamrim is contextualized by dzogchen


I think the same could be said about the Abhidharmakosa if it's about knowing one's real state.

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    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu


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 Post subject: Re: lacking the capacity
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 11:45 am 
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Tashi delek, :)

Without Guru Yoga
No blessngs /power out of the lineage
Without blessings
No realisation

Dharma practice is dependent on karma and ones motivation, related to this is the sequential way or Dzogchen practice.
Only the best karmic gifted can attain the highest result, fruit.

All starts with endless compassion as the base of the path as the best motivation.

Best wishes with our practice
Kalden Yungdruung

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THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD


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 Post subject: Re: lacking the capacity
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 11:59 am 
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kalden yungdrung wrote:
Without blessings
No realisation



Yes, of course one needs transmission

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    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu


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 Post subject: Re: lacking the capacity
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 12:20 pm 
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mr. gordo wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Without blessings
No realisation



Yes, of course one needs transmission


Tashi delek Mr. Gordo, :)

Thanks for your suggestion which is good seen, :)

Besides the transmission comes as a reslult of devotion, the blessings, which is a kind of mind which comes together with the cycle of Dzogchen teaching(s).
These blessings are very needed because it "opens" the mind to receive the teachings
Teachings are at this moment very clear and reflecting due to the blessings
To get these blessings one must practice Guru Yoga in Bon Dzogchen.
This Guru Yoga is mostly connected to the Master of that specific Dzogchen lineage, like Drenpa Namkha in the Bon Indian Dzogchen cycle :"The Yetri Thasel".

So the blessings stem or come here from Drenpa Namkha whereas the Tsawi Lama does the transmission.......

Best wishes
KY

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THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD


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 Post subject: Re: lacking the capacity
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 7:30 am 
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mr. gordo wrote:
Yontan wrote:
My dzogchen teachers have never taught it as anything outside of the lamrim.
Well, better put: the lamrim is contextualized by dzogchen


I think the same could be said about the Abhidharmakosa if it's about knowing one's real state.


Absolutely. If you have to leave Buddhism to practice dzogchen, you aren't practicing dzogchen.


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 Post subject: Re: lacking the capacity
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 12:17 pm 
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Yontan wrote:
mr. gordo wrote:
Yontan wrote:
My dzogchen teachers have never taught it as anything outside of the lamrim.
Well, better put: the lamrim is contextualized by dzogchen


I think the same could be said about the Abhidharmakosa if it's about knowing one's real state.


Absolutely. If you have to leave Buddhism to practice dzogchen, you aren't practicing dzogchen.



Tashi delek Yonten, :)

Absolutely. If you have to leave Buddhism to practice dzogchen, you aren't practicing dzogchen, did you wrote.

I have a few questions to you:


- What does Buddhism incorporate inside the Dzogchen?
- Is Dzogchen based on teachings stemming from Buddha Shakyamuni?
- In case of yes how is this Dzogchen lineage called and which Dzogchen Masters are included?
- Can one practioce Dzogchen without being a Buddhist?
- What is a Buddhist or when can one call oneself a Buddhist?


Thanks in advance for your attention


Best wishes
KY

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THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD


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 Post subject: Re: lacking the capacity
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 4:19 pm 
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kalden yungdrung wrote:

What does Buddhism incorporate inside the Dzogchen?


Not a clear question.

Quote:
- Is Dzogchen based on teachings stemming from Buddha Shakyamuni?


Garab Dorje is an emanation of Shakyamuni Buddha.


Quote:
- In case of yes how is this Dzogchen lineage called and which Dzogchen Masters are included?


Samantabhadra, Vajrasattva, etc., Garab Dorje, Manjshruimitra, etc.

Quote:
- Can one practioce Dzogchen without being a Buddhist?


No. Whoever follows the teachings of a Buddha is a Buddhist.

Quote:
- What is a Buddhist or when can one call oneself a Buddhist?


When one goes for refuge to any Buddha, his Dharma and his Sangha.

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http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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 Post subject: Re: lacking the capacity
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 6:09 pm 
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Tashi delek Namdrol, :)

Thanks for your reply.
Will write in blue between the lines

Best wishes
KY


Namdrol wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:

What does Buddhism incorporate inside the Dzogchen?


Not a clear question.
My question was better said, which Buddhist elements are inside Dzogchen philiosophy or which are in a certain way common. One suggestion would be Sugatagarbha?

Quote:
- Is Dzogchen based on teachings stemming from Buddha Shakyamuni?


Garab Dorje is an emanation of Shakyamuni Buddha.
This is new to me. Is this somewhere in a Dzogchen teaching from Prahevajra mentioned, or somewhere else in Garab Dorjes commentaries?
Quote:
-

In case of yes how is this Dzogchen lineage called and which Dzogchen Masters are included?


Samantabhadra, Vajrasattva, etc., Garab Dorje, Manjshruimitra, etc.
Yes i know that Kuntu Zangpo is here the primordial source and that would not be Buddha Shakyamuni[./color]

Quote:
- Can one practioce Dzogchen without being a Buddhist?

No. Whoever follows the teachings of a Buddha is a Buddhist.
[color=#0080FF]Can fully agrre to this because Dzogchen is not known in the non - Buddhist cultures/religions/ philosophies


Quote:
- What is a Buddhist or when can one call oneself a Buddhist?


When one goes for refuge to any Buddha, his Dharma and his Sangha.
:D
Well said !

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THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD


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