Tathagatagarbha and Eternity

[adinatha]

The tathagatagharba is eternal.

[Dechen Norbu]

No, it's beyond time.

[adinatha]

No. It's eternal, not impermanent, permanent.

[Malcolm]

The tathagatagharba is eternal.

Maitreyanatha clarifies that the buddhadhātu is called "permanent" because it is beyond all extremes of permanence and impermanence.

He makes the same observation about "self": it is called a self because it is beyond extreme of identity and absence of identity.

[Malcolm]

No. It's eternal, not impermanent, permanent.

Buddhadhātu, tathāgatagarbha, is not a substantial thing. It is, for example, described as the dharmakāya encased in obscurations in the Śrīmālādevi sūtra.

It is styled "permanent" for the reasons I gave above which you can easily find in the Uttaratantra.

[adinatha]

The tathagatagharba is eternal.

Maitreyanatha clarifies that the buddhadhātu is called "permanent" because it is beyond all extremes of permanence and impermanence.

He makes the same observation about "self": it is called a self because it is beyond extreme of identity and absence of identity.

Second turning's meaning. Third turning's is definitive.

[adinatha]

No. It's eternal, not impermanent, permanent.

Buddhadhātu, tathāgatagarbha, is not a substantial thing. It is, for example, described as the dharmakāya encased in obscurations in the Śrīmālādevi sūtra.

It is styled "permanent" for the reasons I gave above which you can easily find in the Uttaratantra.

Buddhadhatu is endowed with qualities.

[Malcolm]

The tathagatagharba is eternal.

Maitreyanatha clarifies that the buddhadhātu is called "permanent" because it is beyond all extremes of permanence and impermanence.

He makes the same observation about "self": it is called a self because it is beyond extreme of identity and absence of identity.

Second turning's meaning. Third turning's is definitive.

Ahem -- this is what he says in Uttaratantra, the only commentary on the tathāgatagarbha sutras we have. This is the third turning POV. Read Uttaratantra. For example, he says that kāyas of the buddhas are permanent because their causes are endless based on the two accumulations.

He explains that the dharmakāya is permanent since the non-duality of samsara and nirvana has been realized.

None of these statements of purity, bliss, self and permanence can be taken literally. Otherwise, one will be no different than a tīrthika.

N

[Malcolm]

No. It's eternal, not impermanent, permanent.

Buddhadhātu, tathāgatagarbha, is not a substantial thing. It is, for example, described as the dharmakāya encased in obscurations in the Śrīmālādevi sūtra.

It is styled "permanent" for the reasons I gave above which you can easily find in the Uttaratantra.

Buddhadhatu is endowed with qualities.

Yes.

The dharmakāya possesses the qualities of liberation; the rūpakaya possess the qualities of maturation such as the major and minor marks.

All of this is clearly explained in Uttaratantra.

[adinatha]

None of these statements ... can be taken literally.

This is the abiding condition.

[adinatha]

Yes.

The dharmakāya possesses the qualities of liberation; the rūpakaya possess the qualities of maturation such as the major and minor marks.

All of this is clearly explained in Uttaratantra.

Inseparability.

[adinatha]

Buddhahood is endowed with two-fold value.
It is uncreated, spontaneous and
not to be realized through external causes.
It possesses knowledge, compassionate love and ability.

-Uttaratantra

[Malcolm]

If kayas were caused they'd be impermanent.

In your opinion, the rūpakāya has no cause?

N

[adinatha]

If kayas were caused they'd be impermanent.

In your opinion, the rūpakāya has no cause?

N

Spontaneous appearance.

Cause and effect appear dualistically in the mode of deluded perception.

aka Bingo

[Malcolm]

None of these statements ... can be taken literally.

This is the abiding condition.

They still cannot be taken literally.

[adinatha]

I bow down to the sun of dharma,
which is neither existence nor non-existence,
nor a combination of existence and non-existence,
nor something other than existence and non-existence:
the unexaminable, beyond all verbal definition,
self-cognisant, peace,
stainless, brilliant with the light jnana,
which completely destroys craving for,
aversion to or dullness toward mental objects.

-Uttaratantra

Key-word: self-cognisant

[Malcolm]

If kayas were caused they'd be impermanent.

In your opinion, the rūpakāya has no cause?

N

Spontaneous appearance.

Cause and effect appear dualistically in the mode of deluded perception.

aka Bingo

This is the case, but now you have left the teaching of the Tathagatagarbha sutras behind. That is not how they present the arising of the rūpakāya.

N

[adinatha]

None of these statements ... can be taken literally.

This is the abiding condition.

They still cannot be taken literally.

Pick a word, any word, in the dharma, its interpretation, and what you say will always be true, self nullifying everything.

[adinatha]

This is the case, but now you have left the teaching of the Tathagatagarbha sutras behind. That is not how they present the arising of the rūpakāya.

N

The case is the case, reinterpret on down.

[Malcolm]

I bow down to the sun of dharma,
which is neither existence nor non-existence,
nor a combination of existence and non-existence,
nor something other than existence and non-existence:
the unexaminable, beyond all verbal definition,
self-cognisant, peace,
stainless, brilliant with the light jnana,
which completely destroys craving for,
aversion to or dullness toward mental objects.

-Uttaratantra

Key-word: self-cognisant

Sorry, this is not really translated correctly. The Sanskrit for this is "pratyātmavedyaḥ", this means "personally intuited", not self-cognizant. This is a common mistake made by translators when they do not realize that སོ་སོ་རང་གིས་རིག་པ (so so rang gi rig pa) is not a translation of svāsaṃvedana (self-reflexive or self-cognising). The two terms are very different in meaning. You could say "self-cognized" i.e. meaning something you personally understood.

The commentary on this passage by Kontrul bears this out.