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Help please - Fortune Telling - Dhamma Wheel

Help please - Fortune Telling

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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GrahamR
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Help please - Fortune Telling

Postby GrahamR » Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:36 pm

Help please!

I know that generally Buddhist teaching is opposed to fortune telling.

I am aware of a scriptural reference to the role of a fortune teller being inappropriate for a monk, but are there any references in scripture regarding fortune telling and the laity?

Can anyone help please?

With metta,
:bow:
Graham
With metta :bow:
Graham

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clw_uk
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Re: Help please - Fortune Telling

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:50 pm

I dont know if there are any suttas that deal with lay people doing these things but my understanding is that the buddha considered fourtune telling and the like as useless and not worth anyone engaging in them.

:namaste:
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piotr
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Re: Help please - Fortune Telling

Postby piotr » Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:52 pm

Hi,

the closest I've ever encountered was Caṇḍāla-sutta (). What bhante Ṭhānissaro translates as "protective charms & ceremonies" (i.e. maṅgala) can also mean "good omen".
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...

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clw_uk
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Re: Help please - Fortune Telling

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:40 pm

"Whereas some religious men, while living of food provided by the faithful make their living by such low arts, such wrong means of livelihood as palmistry, divining by signs, interpreting dreams... bringing good or bad luck... invoking the goodness of luck... picking the lucky site for a building, the monk Gotama refrains from such low arts, such wrong means of livelihood."


While this refers to things the buddha doesnt do it still applies to lay people as well as the bhikkhus. As stated they are wrong livelihood, thus engaging in them breaks a part of the Noble Eightfold Path, Right livelihood.

Just another note, these professions are based around certain notions of luck etc but the Buddhadhamma doesnt include notions of luck. Everything has a cause.
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Dhammanando
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Re: Help please - Fortune Telling

Postby Dhammanando » Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:33 am


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GrahamR
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Help please - Fortune Telling

Postby GrahamR » Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:51 am

Dear all

Many thanks for the help and advice.

Just a word of explaination, my wife, whilst generally quite a conservative Buddhist, is a half Chinese Thai and unfortunately takes fortune telling all too seriously, sometimes to the disruption of normal life.

As far as I am concerned, fortune telling and the laws of Kamma are mutually exclusive.

With metta,
:bow:
Graham
With metta :bow:
Graham

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retrofuturist
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Re: Help please - Fortune Telling

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:06 am

Greetings Graham,

Just a quick thought that hasn't been mentioned thus far... if someone who is "fortune telling" knows that they are a fraud then this livelihood would entail wrong speech, plus a violation of the 'taking that which is not given' precept.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Placid-pool
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Re: Help please - Fortune Telling

Postby Placid-pool » Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:39 am


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GrahamR
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Re: Help please - Fortune Telling

Postby GrahamR » Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:46 pm

With metta :bow:
Graham

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Placid-pool
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Re: Help please - Fortune Telling

Postby Placid-pool » Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:01 pm

Oh dear - that's a common misconception - that prediction means that life is laid out and one can't escape one's destiny. Far from it - people are given choices every day and each choice means a change of direction, no matter how minor.

The purpose of real fortune telling (as opposed to quackery and fraud) is to show the "client" what their inclinations might be, what the consequences might be of a certain decision, to warn them of things that they might not be aware (such as colleagues plotting against them at work) - it's never about "this is what is going to happen" and much more about "this is what you will feel like doing and if you do, then this will be the outcome but you do have other options, which you ought to look at, and this person might help you or don't trust this person"

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GrahamR
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Help please - Fortune Telling

Postby GrahamR » Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:35 pm

With metta :bow:
Graham

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clw_uk
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Re: Help please - Fortune Telling

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:37 pm

Seems like the fortune teller is a proponent of fate, something which is non-buddhist.
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Dhammanando
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Re: Help please - Fortune Telling

Postby Dhammanando » Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:16 pm


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Placid-pool
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Re: Help please - Fortune Telling

Postby Placid-pool » Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:05 pm


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GrahamR
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Re: Help please - Fortune Telling

Postby GrahamR » Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:05 pm

With metta :bow:
Graham

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Placid-pool
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Re: Help please - Fortune Telling

Postby Placid-pool » Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:40 pm

Absolutely no problem Graham - I am quite used to it and took no umbridge.

It really is a problem that there are a few of us using their talents to help people and we are up against an army of money-grubbing charlatans. Same goes for healing - I don't charge for that either but know of "magnetisers" and other crooks who rip people off to vast amounts and don't get half the results we do - by the way, I always start every session either for healing or reading by telling the person that I can't guarantee anything, no results promised, let's just see what happens.


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