Bothersome things about Vajrayana and Dzogchen

[Enochian]

.....

[Malcolm]

Ok forgot about the nature of mind stuff. I really don't care about validation. Its not like I am going to set myself up as some sort nonduality guru like Eckhart Tolle or Adyashanti.

If I was going to do something like that, I would have done it years ago.

But back to OBE....

I see absolutely no difference between certian types of phowa and the high level projection technique in Astral Dynamics, first edition. Even the purpose is the same, to access high level planes such as the heavens. And both involve essentially a crown center exit.

And also Dalai Lama mentions in realtion to these things, the ability to become a "perfect spy." If that is not OBE, I don't know what is.

OBE is a conceptual exercise. Phowa (at death) is deliberately severing the connection of your wind/mind with your body. When you train in this, there is no concept of access to some heaven. The purpose of it is integrate one's mind with the Guru's mind -- it is just that outer phowa one is doing this very dualistically. But that is not the main point.

[username]

Enochian, you are not saying anything new or substantial but re-repeating your rhetoric in your usual tongue in cheek tone that vajrayana practices, now it's phowa, are no different to Astral Projection/OBE and other new age fads and spiritual materialisms in the market, trying to provoke reactions. Technically it is called trolling.

[Enochian]

......

[adinatha]

No he genuinely believes what he is saying and he is trying to figure out the connections, because he wants to have a path all his own, fully researched, analyzed and designed by himself. His problem is that his own work is not giving him results that resemble what is described in buddhist texts that he reads so he is confused about what those texts mean. He is convinced that hindu kundalini yoga can't be any different than tummo yoga, so he ought to be able to get a functionally equivalent result. He is also convinced that modern neophytes like Robert Bruce have reached enlightenment on their own by just tinkering and figuring it all out for themselves, and by gosh, he is Indian after all, so he ought to have more innate experience than some white Australian. Not only that, but he is American so that gives him the power of good old Yankee ingenuity. If he can just keep us talking long enough, especially Namdrol, he will somehow be able to fully reverse engineer Dzogchen and the sky's the limit. Don't believe him when he says he only has an academic interest. He is saying that for now, while he is tinkering with his system. But I guarantee you he will not be publishing any papers and he is not working an advanced degree at any institution of higher learning. He is working like a mad scientist in his own lab (bedroom at his parents' house), and when he can concoct the right formula he will try to become an Adyashanti or Eckhart Tolle, two people I know he reveres, because they are also self-starting self-promoters who made it to the big time. It's also a case of what Nisargadatta Maharaja described when he prophesied, "Now all you whites are here learning this truth, and then you go to your homes and teach it to other whites, and then they will return these teachings to our homeland of India, and Indians will throw garlands on you, this is India's nature." Basically, if a white guy didn't figure it out, it can't be right, because he is a typical self-doubting Indian who just talks confident. The Indian psyche is totally screwed up and a million levels, I know because I am one too. But he is doomed from the start from being able to do any reverse engineering, because he is unwilling to accept guru yoga and lineage as the start point. Until he does so, all this talk is for nothing and none of these conversations will have any benefit for anyone. I've known this guy for years. He's not so bad; he actually may be on the brink of understanding. All our Indian heritage really does give us a sort of genetic head start on these teachings, because they are deeply ingrained in everything about our culture, food and our bodies and minds have been shaped by enlightenment culture for many thousands of years. But that brink will be stuck on the brink forever until he gets a teacher, a yidam guru and gets to the practice of the descent of blessings. That goes for anyone else too. This last part is so simple too. It's always the most simple missing link in the puzzle that clears up the whole picture. Once he makes this connection he could actually gain a high realization which is why I have bothered with his punk ass for so long.

[dingirfecho]

Enochian, what I don`t get is, if you`re an academician, why don`t you suscribe to one of the many academic forums for buddhism? Vajradhara knows the net is full of them, and this line of inquiry will be better supported by, say, Richard Hayes than Namdrol.

Sure, if you want to listen to the screeds of a materialist raconteur who has decided to fall in line with Batchelorism.

Namdrol-la: be that as it may, he´s still an academician, who also has views more like enochian here ("you don´t need to be a dzogchenpa to say that it is like this!"). Perhaps that will be more productive than the badgering he´s getting here.

[Enochian]

.....

[Josef]

I am done with this forum. Peace.

bye.

[gregkavarnos]

A long slow goodbye coming up folks... Don't leave your seats, keep your eyes glued to the screen!


PS Dear Enochian, I actually believe you are serious about what you are doing/saying too... Unfortunately though it is (also) seriously delusive and will not come to any good.

[kirtu]

Chakras are used in Hindu and other practices across the board. Very generally they aren't used in Buddhist Vajrayana or Mahayana.

Kirt

Have you heard of completion stage?

Not only have I heard of it ..... have you heard of not mixing up systems? As I said "very generally they [referring to chakras] aren't used in Buddhist Vajrayana ....". That is factual they may be directly used in some completion stage practices. But it's not common. And since you don't practice Vajrayana you wouldn't know for sure if they are used directly anyway.

Kirt

[kirtu]

Enochian, what I don`t get is, if you`re an academician, why don`t you suscribe to one of the many academic forums for buddhism? Vajradhara knows the net is full of them, and this line of inquiry will be better supported by, say, Richard Hayes than Namdrol.

Hayes ??? Come on - he's going to make sport of upsetting his apple carts ....


Kirt

[kirtu]

I thought this was a general buddhist forum?

Not just Vajrayana?

I am still a buddhist who takes refuge in the Triple Gems.

OK. If you don't mind, do you identify with any particular Buddhist tradition? practice with a sangha, or at least participate in one?

I take refuge in the Triple Gems. And I also have a Mahayana aspiration to obtain perfect omniscient Buddhahood as fast as possible to help infinite sentient beings.

Okay - sutra is good .... we are all working on perfect Bodhicitta .....

I try to explain to my Indian parents that Hinduism is a deviant heretical religion.

Come on .... please don't pick on your parents or relatives. If they follow Hinduism they can definitely enhance their good qualities.

Kirt

[username]

Hi adinatha, no one's judging anyone and ultimately everyone is in change and not even fully known by themselves. Generally speaking in many occasions in history from ancient Greece and India till now, evading points put to one, circular arguing, apparently agreeing with opponents with a final dishonest clause that they are reaffirming one after all, changing subjects in a closed loop as the going gets tough, sophistry, repeating basic slogans with no new input, falsely thinking of oneself as superior and mercurial in method with some humor and more I could mention are quite well known tactics we all sometimes engage in. Ultimately these tactics do not do any good for anyone in the group and we will be even fooling ourselves specially with our intentions. We all sense Enochian is a good guy and currently a Mahayanist and I think he is too honest to set up a spiritual stall and will be fine. BTW I really admire your passion in that post and he has a good friend in you and don't get upset by his last post, he's a good friend in the long run. Also there are many Indian Buddhists doing good work already one can support.
http://www.thebuddhistforum.com/about-u ... forum.html
http://www.thebuddhistforum.com/about-us/our-team.html

[adinatha]

I just want to make a disclaimer that Adinatha does not know me. I HAVE conversed with him in the past years, but none of those conversations could EVER form the basis of this nonsense.

And Adintatha pushed his own faulty views on me, like he continuely does to Namdrol, which everyone is a witness of.

Reference: http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=3943

Well if I had faulty views, being the heart-son to a Drubpon in the glorious Drikung Kagyu lineage, I'm certain he would have done his usual special way of trouncing them. But recently he has certified I have the right view and not to lose it. I asked him if it was a problem to discuss it. He said not to discuss my inner method of attaining the view or I would lose the blessings, but if I talk about the view itself, it's no problem and will benefit students with wrong views... Keep in mind we are best friends and I spend a lot of spare time with him, and our lives are very closely intertwined just like family. I'm closer to him than my family at this point. He his my older brother, father, mother, professor and professional mentor all at the same time. When I was arguing with him about the differences between Mahamudra and Dzogchen he invited Yogini Jangchub Palmo, student of Chatral Rinpoche, who accomplished three year retreat at Mt. Kailash, over for lunch and we hashed it out. Lama Tony Duff is a very knowledgeable and experienced Dzogchen practitioner in Nepal and whenever he comes back from his teacher Ongtrul Tenpai Wangchuk Rinpoche's monastery in Tibet, he shares more and more very secret dzogchen knowledge that I've promised not to discuss. I'll be going to Los Angeles to spend the day with Bhakha Tulku Rinpoche this week and will do some more hashing, but all the signs are in. There's nothing faulty about my view. You seriously need to be talking notes. I'm not making this stuff up. I am communicating in an unorthodox way, because, I believe, on a web forum, systematic dharma discussions are not possible, and all that happens is strict sectarianism. Crazy talk is the best way to lose conceptual grasping while also drip dropping the view... That's where I am right now and that could all change tomorrow, who knows...

[adinatha]

Hi adinatha, no one's judging anyone and ultimately everyone is in change and not even fully known by themselves. Generally speaking in many occasions in history from ancient Greece and India till now, evading points put to one, circular arguing, apparently agreeing with opponents with a final dishonest clause that they are reaffirming one after all, changing subjects in a closed loop as the going gets tough, sophistry, repeating basic slogans with no new input, falsely thinking of oneself as superior and mercurial in method with some humor and more I could mention are quite well known tactics we all sometimes engage in. Ultimately these tactics do not do any good for anyone in the group and we will be even fooling ourselves specially with our intentions. We all sense Enochian is a good guy and currently a Mahayanist and I think he is too honest to set up a spiritual stall and will be fine. BTW I really admire your passion in that post and he has a good friend in you and don't get upset by his last post, he's a good friend in the long run. Also there are many Indian Buddhists doing good work already one can support.
http://www.thebuddhistforum.com/about-u ... forum.html
http://www.thebuddhistforum.com/about-us/our-team.html

Online forums are okay, but one needs personal time with the teacher in transmission, Q&A, face to face sangha, people who know you up and down, strict retreat, and then no matter what you or anyone else says on an internet forum, it's all good. I hear what you are saying with the sophistry. This is not Greece. We are not philosophers. At least, I hope not. I would have hoped a yogi or two would pop up. If all I do is confound and piss off philosophers it would be a life well lived in my book. Samsara is not a kind of truth. The knowledge in samsara is not a kind of useful tool. Samsara is nothing but bullshit. Only direct yogic perception is true. So bullshit does what bullshit does... As it was in the beginning, world without end, Amen.

[Enochian]

Namdrol on going to Hell if you break Vajrayana vows

http://www.atikosha.org/2011/04/birthplaces.html


Dalai Lama on OBE:

"Also, a secondary benefit of this dream body is that you can be a perfect spy. "
page 130 Sleeping, Dreaming, and Dying, Dalai Lama

[gregkavarnos]

Unfortunately though it is (also) seriously delusive and will not come to any good.

There are rainbow body practices in the Eastern Orthodox church and a number of accounts of ascetics achieving the rainbow body, so...

Care to expand? Coz really I don't get your point.

[username]

The knowledge in samsara is not a kind of useful tool.

There were wise quotes here on using the conditioned to achieve the unconditioned. Not all knowledge is useless. The poison plant is not avoided by changing path as in Hinayana nor do we put a big rock on it for others' sake as in Mahayana but transformed into medicine in Vajrayana . Dzogchen view goes even further than all of what I just said above as everything has always been not just fine but absolutely perfect anyway. As for the rest, I think we are talking about different things. Being an absolute beginner as I stated from the start days ago, I always return to basics. The yogis are in retreat in caves, monasteries, huts and houses, on the road and in their heart center in ordinary life, not wasting time on the web. May Guru Rinpoche help us. Best wishes to you. Om Ah Hung Vajra Guru Padma Siddi Hung

[sherabpa]

This thread reads like a competition to see who is the most unelaborated, or who has the most non-conceptual teaching. Isn't that absurd?

[kirtu]

Namdrol on going to Hell if you break Vajrayana vows

http://www.atikosha.org/2011/04/birthplaces.html

That means ultimately. And for beings who make it to Vajra Hell, that's not the end of the story either. Anyway Vajra Hell is really difficult to get to. It's true that we easily break the vows but we can also easily repair them.

The vows are critical if one wishes to enter the Vajrayana. And the Vajrayana is important because we'd like to skip 3 incalculable eons of activity. Beings are waiting on us to attain enlightenment now.


Kirt