Pointing out instructions

Moderator: Tibetan Buddhism moderators

Pointing out instructions

Postby Fa Dao » Sun May 01, 2011 2:11 am

Heres a question...
I have read a little about Dzogchen. Only had one teaching on it from a qualified Lama, definitely not an expert though. What is the difference (if any) between pointing out instructions and what is called the "Mind to Mind transmission" found in Chan? Would be nice to get some answers from those who are knowledgeable in both traditions.
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
User avatar
Fa Dao
 
Posts: 459
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:42 pm

Re: Pointing out instructions

Postby Malcolm » Sun May 01, 2011 2:19 am

Fa Dao wrote:Heres a question...
I have read a little about Dzogchen. Only had one teaching on it from a qualified Lama, definitely not an expert though. What is the difference (if any) between pointing out instructions and what is called the "Mind to Mind transmission" found in Chan? Would be nice to get some answers from those who are knowledgeable in both traditions.



The basic difference is as follows. With Dzogchen, right in the very beginning your primordial state is pointed out to you with words, symbols and personal experience. You then work with this, integrating into this knowledge.

In Zen, you practice for many years, discover your real nature, awaken, and then your awakening is signed off on by an awakened master, someone who is capable of recognizing the experience you have had and verifying it for you.

So, completely different.

I should clarify that there are lots of different traditions of "pointing out". And the way "pointing out" is done in Dzogchen is very different than the way it is done in Mahāmudrā -- the latter is far more gradual, in general.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10217
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Pointing out instructions

Postby username » Sun May 01, 2011 3:31 am

Dzogchen direct introductions' path of self-liberation's fruit and Mahamudra pointing outs' fruit are beyond causality and the transformation path of vajrayana (tantra) but their practice involves vajrayana all the way which is practiced by fully enlightened masters from a Rigpa POV. Both major schools of Cha'an and then the two branches of Zen despite some lower tantric practices are not even considered vajrayana but sutric in essence.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
username
 
Posts: 759
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:23 pm

Re: Pointing out instructions

Postby Heruka » Sun May 01, 2011 4:16 am

dont forget your kindness, your compassion when telling folk stories to fortify anothers mind about..............
Heruka
 
Posts: 1069
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:34 am

Re: Pointing out instructions

Postby username » Sun May 01, 2011 4:22 am

Once upon a time in the woods a lost ox looked up at a branch and saw a fully formed garuda chick hatching and immediately flying towards his home...
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
username
 
Posts: 759
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:23 pm

Re: Pointing out instructions

Postby Heruka » Sun May 01, 2011 4:30 am

username wrote:Once upon a time



i was going to say the same thing brother!
Heruka
 
Posts: 1069
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:34 am

Re: Pointing out instructions

Postby username » Sun May 01, 2011 4:39 am

Heruka wrote:
username wrote:Once upon a time



i was going to say the same thing brother!


Yo beat, whas happenin?
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
username
 
Posts: 759
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:23 pm

Re: Pointing out instructions

Postby Heruka » Sun May 01, 2011 4:48 am

username wrote:
Heruka wrote:
username wrote:Once upon a time



i was going to say the same thing brother!


Yo beat, whas happenin?


mind reading bro!

:rolling:
Heruka
 
Posts: 1069
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:34 am

Re: Pointing out instructions

Postby rai » Sun May 01, 2011 7:57 am

if someone participated in few pointing out transmissions (for general public) but never really get it what is the relationship with the teacher then? is it his root guru anyway?
Disdaining the lower and unable to grasp the higher,
talking of emptiness, such a person will neglect cause and effect,
mouthing on about the view while in a state of self-deception.
It would be better to concentrate on the gradual path.

"Creation and Completion" Jamgon Kongtrul
rai
 
Posts: 118
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:58 pm

Re: Pointing out instructions

Postby heart » Sun May 01, 2011 8:06 am

rai wrote:if someone participated in few pointing out transmissions (for general public) but never really get it what is the relationship with the teacher then? is it his root guru anyway?


Depends on you, if you have confidence in this master I would ask him about the pointing-out in private. If you don't have confidence, try someone else.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 2937
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Pointing out instructions

Postby Sönam » Sun May 01, 2011 9:26 am

rai wrote:if someone participated in few pointing out transmissions (for general public) but never really get it what is the relationship with the teacher then? is it his root guru anyway?


for the root guru it's easy ... it's when he is there and you laugh at it with him!

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
Sönam
 
Posts: 1869
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
Location: France

Re: Pointing out instructions

Postby username » Sun May 01, 2011 1:24 pm

rai wrote:if someone participated in few pointing out transmissions (for general public) but never really get it what is the relationship with the teacher then? is it his root guru anyway?


Every time one receives a direct introduction or a pointing out by a true lineage master it affects one deeply and works in various ways even if not noticed. But often it does not succeed. When it does succeed to introduce one to her real nature of mind then that it is one's root guru. Second point is after receiving a direct introduction or a pointing out and most importantly receiving the lineage's transmission thus,the practitioner can continually try to discover her real nature by herself using various exercises based on emptiness or clarity and sometimes either or both combined with bliss to discover the underlying instant presence. Good books on Dzogchen for these methods and clarifications can be Longchenpa's scholarly "A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission" or more effective in plain language for most are Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche's two smaller volumes of "As It Is" or Chogyal Namkhai Norbu's regular open webcasts. The small book "You are the Eyes of the World" doesn't hurt.On Mahamudra the small classic manual "Clarifying the Natural State" by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal is excellent if read slowly and often and trying to think about the answers to questions for a while before rushing ahead to read them in the next paragraph. Best is to try to watch the mind in daily life at ease. For meditation there are numerous ways, one possible way is explained well here:
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=3941
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
username
 
Posts: 759
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:23 pm

Re: Pointing out instructions

Postby gnegirl » Sun May 01, 2011 4:34 pm

:D
Attachments
dudjom pointing.jpg
dudjom pointing.jpg (11.8 KiB) Viewed 1868 times
"Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise." --Surangama Sutra

Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?
User avatar
gnegirl
 
Posts: 386
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2010 8:22 pm
Location: Waponi Woo

Re: Pointing out instructions

Postby username » Sun May 01, 2011 4:55 pm

Image
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
username
 
Posts: 759
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:23 pm

Re: Pointing out instructions

Postby adinatha » Sun May 01, 2011 5:54 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Fa Dao wrote:Heres a question...
I have read a little about Dzogchen. Only had one teaching on it from a qualified Lama, definitely not an expert though. What is the difference (if any) between pointing out instructions and what is called the "Mind to Mind transmission" found in Chan? Would be nice to get some answers from those who are knowledgeable in both traditions.



The basic difference is as follows. With Dzogchen, right in the very beginning your primordial state is pointed out to you with words, symbols and personal experience. You then work with this, integrating into this knowledge.

In Zen, you practice for many years, discover your real nature, awaken, and then your awakening is signed off on by an awakened master, someone who is capable of recognizing the experience you have had and verifying it for you.

So, completely different.

I should clarify that there are lots of different traditions of "pointing out". And the way "pointing out" is done in Dzogchen is very different than the way it is done in Mahāmudrā -- the latter is far more gradual, in general.


You tryin ta picka fight cowboy? :guns:

This is generally correct, because the typical Mahamudra pointing out instruction is long transmission that last several months and Dzogchen has the famous single word pointing out. HOWEVER! In the Kagyu tradition of essence mahamudra there are pointing out instructions that are just a few words or no words using a demonstration. And there is in both traditions the literal mind-mind transmission where the master mixes his mind with space and you get energy, similar to shaktipat, except here, because the realization is that energy is emptiness, the shakti and the pat are totally different and in the manner of the buddha's wisdom. The shazam method in the mahamudra tradition is explained in the Eighth Tai Situpa's commentary on the 3rd Karmapa's Aspiration Prayer of Mahamudra.
CAW!
User avatar
adinatha
 
Posts: 886
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:07 am

Re: Pointing out instructions

Postby username » Sun May 01, 2011 6:06 pm

Rigpa is not given away as in a blessing but self discovered after lineage transmission. Also rigpa is beyond all energy, shaktipat or whatever, and even space.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
username
 
Posts: 759
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:23 pm

Re: Pointing out instructions

Postby adinatha » Sun May 01, 2011 6:10 pm

username wrote:Rigpa is not given away as in a blessing but self discovered after lineage transmission. Also rigpa is beyond all energy, shaktipat or whatever, and even space.


Tell that to Chatral Rinpoche. The blessing energy is a basis, then you see. I should have made that little clarification.
CAW!
User avatar
adinatha
 
Posts: 886
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:07 am

Re: Pointing out instructions

Postby username » Sun May 01, 2011 6:47 pm

If "the blessing energy" or shaktipat or "master charging space with energy" was the basis many would not discover rigpa on their own long after receiving Direct Transmission as energy/shaktipat/whatever would have dissipated. Mistaking various categories of vibrations from masters in different situations is not rigpa as we are often told. Also Direct Transmission is often emphasized to be different in nature to blessings' mechanisms or anything else since this is a common error by those who are complete rookies to Dzogchen.

adinatha wrote:literal mind-mind transmission where the master mixes his mind with space and you get energy, similar to shaktipat, except here, because the realization is that energy is emptiness, the shakti and the pat are totally different and in the manner of the buddha's wisdom.


Still wrong on all 3 because:

username wrote:Rigpa is not given away as in a blessing but self discovered after lineage transmission. Also rigpa is beyond all energy, shaktipat or whatever, and even space.


As for mind to mind transmission, that is a totally different kettle of fish and no point talking about X, Y & Z when we haven't even got to a, b, c yet.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
username
 
Posts: 759
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:23 pm

Re: Pointing out instructions

Postby Malcolm » Sun May 01, 2011 6:59 pm

adinatha wrote: The shazam method in the mahamudra tradition is explained in the Eighth Tai Situpa's commentary on the 3rd Karmapa's Aspiration Prayer of Mahamudra.


The descent of the wisdom vajra empowerment originally comes from the Mahāmudra chapter of the Jñan̄asiddhi written by Indrabhuti. Tai Situ's presentation is completely based on this. In fact, the whole Kagyu essence Mahamudra tradition uses this text to justify its approach.

However, the Jñan̄asiddhi still presents a gradual path. In the very next chapter after the Mahāmudra chapter in this text, Indrabhuti states:

"One whose yoga engages the mind
through the application
of gradual training becomes a buddha,
there is no other way to accomplish Buddhahood."

So, it is pretty clear that Mahāmudra in general is considered a gradual path.

However, in regards to so called Cigcarwas, those whose awakening is sudden, merely through an introduction -- an early Nyingma master of the twelfth century, Zhigpo Dudtsi remarked, "Apart from Saraha in India, and Lingje Repa (founder of Drugpa Kagyu), I have never heard of any other cigcarwas. Maybe they exist, but I have never met one."
Last edited by Malcolm on Sun May 01, 2011 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10217
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Pointing out instructions

Postby gnegirl » Sun May 01, 2011 7:05 pm

username wrote:Image

:good:
"Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise." --Surangama Sutra

Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?
User avatar
gnegirl
 
Posts: 386
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2010 8:22 pm
Location: Waponi Woo

Next

Return to Dzogchen

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: MSNbot Media and 25 guests

>