Bothersome things about Vajrayana and Dzogchen

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Re: Elements

Postby adinatha » Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:52 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Ye shes bla ma is only sufficient to begin practice.


You're a funny guy. This is bullshit. There are oral instructions of Togal even briefer than this.


Yes, for example in Yangzab. As I said, insufficient for perfect understanding.


There's way briefer than that. Perfect understanding comes from practice and checking with the teacher. Books can only help somewhat. The texts maintain the transmission lineage. But when it comes to the nitty gritty it's all pretty bare bones.
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Re: Elements

Postby Enochian » Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:01 pm

.....
Last edited by Enochian on Mon May 16, 2011 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Elements

Postby Malcolm » Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:03 pm

***
Last edited by Malcolm on Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Elements

Postby Enochian » Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:05 pm

Namdrol wrote:Reflection, reading and studying the most ancient Dzogchen texts is reflection. It is paramount.

N



So if one does not know Tibetan, one CANNOT practice Dzogchen to completion?
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Elements

Postby Malcolm » Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:14 pm

Enochian wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Reflection, reading and studying the most ancient Dzogchen texts is reflection. It is paramount.

N



So if one does not know Tibetan, one CANNOT practice Dzogchen to completion?


One can, but one will not be able to explain Dzogchen to others very well.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Elements

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:19 pm

Enochian wrote:So if one does not know Tibetan, one CANNOT practice Dzogchen to completion?
C'mon Enochian, it's high time you got your shit together and found yourself a teacher coz all this questioning of yours means nothing without practice (unless of course you are going to write a thesis about it all). Do yourself a favour: practice practice, practice!
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Bothersome things about Vajrayana and Dzogchen

Postby Enochian » Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:27 pm

.....
Last edited by Enochian on Mon May 16, 2011 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Elements

Postby Malcolm » Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:28 pm

Enochian wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:
Enochian wrote:So if one does not know Tibetan, one CANNOT practice Dzogchen to completion?
C'mon Enochian, it's high time you got your shit together and found yourself a teacher coz all this questioning of yours means nothing without practice (unless of course you are going to write a thesis about it all). Do yourself a favour: practice practice, practice!
:namaste:



There are some things that bother me about Vajrayana and Dzogchen.



Do tell.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Elements

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:42 pm

This needs a whole new thread!
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Elements

Postby Heruka » Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:50 pm

Enochian wrote:
There are some things that bother me about Vajrayana and Dzogchen.


its counterintuitive anyway, so this is a normal perspective.
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Re: Elements

Postby Enochian » Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:56 pm

.....
Last edited by Enochian on Mon May 16, 2011 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Elements

Postby Heruka » Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:00 pm

great stuff!

well done :applause:
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Re: Elements

Postby Malcolm » Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:03 pm

Enochian wrote:1. One cannot realize rigpa without transmission. That implies Dzogchen is conditioned.



False implication. Rig pa is not the same as the basis. Rig pa is one's knowledge of the basis. That basis is perfectly complete.



2. I was working with chakras for my OBE and astral projection practice, before I even heard of "completion stage". You raise energy through your chakras in a trance state, and then you do a exit technique. No bullshit visualizations either, you just use body awareness and FEEL to manipulate the chakras. The chakras are already there, so why visualize? Where do you think you feel your emotions in your physical body?? The chakras.


I am very familiar with WET tradition, particularly the Crowleyan tradition. It is not even remotely the same.

N
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http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Elements

Postby adinatha » Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:28 pm

There were so many illiterate enlightened masters. The studying part is small compared to listening and contemplation. It just seems big when you're stuck in your head.
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Re: Elements

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:29 pm

GET A TEACHER! And not necessarily a Vajrayana or Dzogchen teacher.
BEFORE you get yourself into some real trouble! Trouble you will NOT be able to deal with.
:namaste:
PS How can you say this
But I realized that western mysticism is a turd sandwhich.
and then adulate OBE? It seems kindda contradictory.
Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Elements

Postby Enochian » Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:33 pm

...
Last edited by Enochian on Mon May 16, 2011 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
Enochian
 
Posts: 364
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Re: Elements

Postby Malcolm » Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:34 pm

adinatha wrote:There were so many illiterate enlightened masters. The studying part is small compared to listening and contemplation. It just seems big when you're stuck in your head.



Suit yourself. Just don't bother me with anymore questions. Thanks.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Elements

Postby Heruka » Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:35 pm

Enochian wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:GET A TEACHER! And not necessarily a Vajrayana or Dzogchen teacher.
BEFORE you get yourself into some real trouble! Trouble you will NOT be able to deal with.
:namaste:



To tell me more conditioned INFERIOR METHODS plus samaya?!

LOL

I don't understand why Namdrol thought I was a Crowley follower. Maybe because of my username? I only learned about western mysticism within the last couple of months, and came to the conclusion it was utter crap.



and there i was about to read the five magics....
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Re: Elements

Postby Malcolm » Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:38 pm

Enochian wrote:To tell me more conditioned INFERIOR METHODS plus samaya?!



Remind me not to answer your questions either.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Elements

Postby Pero » Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:48 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Enochian wrote:To tell me more conditioned INFERIOR METHODS plus samaya?!

Remind me not to answer your questions either.

Well that took you long enough. Longer than you might know even. :rolling:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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