Bothersome things about Vajrayana and Dzogchen

[adinatha]

Ye shes bla ma is only sufficient to begin practice.

You're a funny guy. This is bullshit. There are oral instructions of Togal even briefer than this.

Yes, for example in Yangzab. As I said, insufficient for perfect understanding.

There's way briefer than that. Perfect understanding comes from practice and checking with the teacher. Books can only help somewhat. The texts maintain the transmission lineage. But when it comes to the nitty gritty it's all pretty bare bones.

[Enochian]

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[Malcolm]

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[Enochian]

Reflection, reading and studying the most ancient Dzogchen texts is reflection. It is paramount.

N

So if one does not know Tibetan, one CANNOT practice Dzogchen to completion?

[Malcolm]

Reflection, reading and studying the most ancient Dzogchen texts is reflection. It is paramount.

N

So if one does not know Tibetan, one CANNOT practice Dzogchen to completion?

One can, but one will not be able to explain Dzogchen to others very well.

N

[gregkavarnos]

So if one does not know Tibetan, one CANNOT practice Dzogchen to completion?

C'mon Enochian, it's high time you got your shit together and found yourself a teacher coz all this questioning of yours means nothing without practice (unless of course you are going to write a thesis about it all). Do yourself a favour: practice practice, practice!

[Enochian]

.....

[Malcolm]

So if one does not know Tibetan, one CANNOT practice Dzogchen to completion?

C'mon Enochian, it's high time you got your shit together and found yourself a teacher coz all this questioning of yours means nothing without practice (unless of course you are going to write a thesis about it all). Do yourself a favour: practice practice, practice!

There are some things that bother me about Vajrayana and Dzogchen.

Do tell.

[gregkavarnos]

This needs a whole new thread!

[Heruka]

There are some things that bother me about Vajrayana and Dzogchen.

its counterintuitive anyway, so this is a normal perspective.

[Enochian]

.....

[Heruka]

great stuff!

well done

[Malcolm]

1. One cannot realize rigpa without transmission. That implies Dzogchen is conditioned.

False implication. Rig pa is not the same as the basis. Rig pa is one's knowledge of the basis. That basis is perfectly complete.

2. I was working with chakras for my OBE and astral projection practice, before I even heard of "completion stage". You raise energy through your chakras in a trance state, and then you do a exit technique. No bullshit visualizations either, you just use body awareness and FEEL to manipulate the chakras. The chakras are already there, so why visualize? Where do you think you feel your emotions in your physical body?? The chakras.

I am very familiar with WET tradition, particularly the Crowleyan tradition. It is not even remotely the same.

N

[adinatha]

There were so many illiterate enlightened masters. The studying part is small compared to listening and contemplation. It just seems big when you're stuck in your head.

[gregkavarnos]

GET A TEACHER! And not necessarily a Vajrayana or Dzogchen teacher.
BEFORE you get yourself into some real trouble! Trouble you will NOT be able to deal with.

PS How can you say this

But I realized that western mysticism is a turd sandwhich.

and then adulate OBE? It seems kindda contradictory.

[Enochian]

...

[Malcolm]

There were so many illiterate enlightened masters. The studying part is small compared to listening and contemplation. It just seems big when you're stuck in your head.

Suit yourself. Just don't bother me with anymore questions. Thanks.

[Heruka]

GET A TEACHER! And not necessarily a Vajrayana or Dzogchen teacher.
BEFORE you get yourself into some real trouble! Trouble you will NOT be able to deal with.

To tell me more conditioned INFERIOR METHODS plus samaya?!

LOL

I don't understand why Namdrol thought I was a Crowley follower. Maybe because of my username? I only learned about western mysticism within the last couple of months, and came to the conclusion it was utter crap.

and there i was about to read the five magics....

[Malcolm]

To tell me more conditioned INFERIOR METHODS plus samaya?!

Remind me not to answer your questions either.

N

[Pero]

To tell me more conditioned INFERIOR METHODS plus samaya?!

Remind me not to answer your questions either.

Well that took you long enough. Longer than you might know even.