Elements

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Re: Elements

Postby adinatha » Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:44 pm

I have listened to ChNN's teachings in the past, but I don't practice his methods. I studied him for background. The methods of Ati I follow are very different based on my teachers from different Ati lineages.
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Re: Elements

Postby adinatha » Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:12 pm

Namdrol wrote:Anyway, I am quite sure in Drigung the 37 bodhipakṣa dharmas are considered important. Even high and mighty Dzogchen practitioners like you have mental factors.


Is that true? :|
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Re: Elements

Postby Malcolm » Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:17 am

username wrote:On getting the fourth vision without rigpa


It's not possible. There are many technical reasons why this is so.
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Re: Elements

Postby username » Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:43 am

Namdrol wrote:
username wrote:On getting the fourth vision without rigpa


It's not possible. There are many technical reasons why this is so.


I know, my full quote was:
On getting the fourth vision without rigpa it is probably possible. The last second of a malevolent entity being wrathfully liberated into the ground but then again technically that last moment is also rigpa.

Probably (again) the last moment of all unenlightened beings as the cosmos is dissolved too but then again that is enforced rigpa too. Both cases are conjectures and assumed to be full rigpa anyway.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Elements

Postby adinatha » Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:39 am

Namdrol wrote:
username wrote:On getting the fourth vision without rigpa


It's not possible. There are many technical reasons why this is so.


Can the five lights arise without Togal?
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Re: Elements

Postby heart » Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:35 am

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
username wrote:On getting the fourth vision without rigpa


It's not possible. There are many technical reasons why this is so.


Can the five lights arise without Togal?


Can you experience Entoptic Phenomenon without rigpa, for sure. But that is not the path of the four visions.

/magnus
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Re: Elements

Postby adinatha » Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:12 am

heart wrote:
adinatha wrote:Can the five lights arise without Togal?


Can you experience Entoptic Phenomenon without rigpa, for sure. But that is not the path of the four visions.

/magnus


Do the five lights of rigpa arise without Togal?
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Re: Elements

Postby adinatha » Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:14 am

heart wrote:
Can the five lights arise without Togal?


Can you experience Entoptic Phenomenon without rigpa, for sure. But that is not the path of the four visions.

/magnus


I'm not talking about Entoptic Phenomena.
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Re: Elements

Postby heart » Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:28 am

adinatha wrote:
heart wrote:
adinatha wrote:Can the five lights arise without Togal?


Can you experience Entoptic Phenomenon without rigpa, for sure. But that is not the path of the four visions.

/magnus


Do the five lights of rigpa arise without Togal?


You wonder if you recognized rigpa can you have the visions without applying the Togal instructions? I don't know. You might have some experiences but it might just as well become a distraction.

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Re: Elements

Postby heart » Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:36 am

adinatha wrote:
heart wrote:
Can the five lights arise without Togal?


Can you experience Entoptic Phenomenon without rigpa, for sure. But that is not the path of the four visions.

/magnus


I'm not talking about Entoptic Phenomena.


Are you sure? :smile: Seriously, I am currently trying to understand the distinction myself.

/magnus
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Re: Elements

Postby alpha » Sat Apr 30, 2011 9:50 am

Vissions of thogal manifest from rigpa but entoptic phenomena do not...

you can have vissions ...at least those from the first vission ....but if you are not in rigpa they are only objects...like any other objects,they havent been freed yet...
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Re: Elements

Postby heart » Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:14 am

http://www.eye-floaters.info/floaters/introduction.htm

http://www.scientificexploration.org/ed ... nce_06.pdf

Article on page 14 by the same guy.

I think it is quite interesting.

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Re: Elements

Postby Malcolm » Sat Apr 30, 2011 1:32 pm

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
username wrote:On getting the fourth vision without rigpa


It's not possible. There are many technical reasons why this is so.


Can the five lights arise without Togal?



I am not going to answer this question, not because I can't, but because the answer will involve discussing things not appropriate to discuss with strangers.

Many times I have heard teachers say one should not discuss things like togal in bars. That does not mean you cannot mention the name "togal" in a bar -- but to explain it, etc., is inappropriate. In this instance I will follow the instructions of my teachers and disengage from this line of discussion.

N
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http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Elements

Postby adinatha » Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:15 pm

I'll ask it another way. Is it possible for the Five Wisdom Lights to arise from the practice of Guru Yoga or Essence Mahamudra?
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Re: Elements

Postby username » Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:55 pm

You can't force through these stages with force, impatience and mere techniques as is the habit of us westerners. Even more important if the desire is strong then it backfires. One should also look at how subtle levels of inner clinging and desire interact with the external world which is a whole different area. The ground in Dzogchen is different than in Yogachara too. Also there are different categories of rtsal manifestations. If none of these five separate areas convinces one, then it is good to keep in mind what we are told, namely that handling these things wrongly or too impatiently or wanting them too much or even liking them before or after initial basic arising can block them for the current lifetime. This page is all wrong.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Elements

Postby adinatha » Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:56 pm

heart wrote:http://www.eye-floaters.info/floaters/introduction.htm

http://www.scientificexploration.org/ed ... nce_06.pdf

Article on page 14 by the same guy.

I think it is quite interesting.

/magnus


I'm not talking about this.
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Re: Elements

Postby adinatha » Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:05 pm

Okay. I'm not communicating enough. I know from personal experience that the five wisdom lights arise by abiding in rigpa, mahamudra, use your favorite word. The five wisdom lights are the essence of the elements. So this is what we are talking about on this thread. The avidya released in vidya causes these lights to appear. This is how I got into learning more about them, and then learned of Togal and got into the whole Atiyoga practice. It's consistent every time I enter samadhi. So the question is, are these lights arising because of past life karma? Or is it the practice of abiding that does it? I'm interested in Loppon's answer. My teacher's and I have talked about this extensively. The answer I get is that the three kayas are complete with the direct perception of dharmakaya. That these lights will arise for people, but then won't know what to do next. What to do next is Togal, which we are not going to talk about. But it seems that Namdrol thinks the lights are contingent upon Togal. I'm interested to know if he thinks that's the case. That would be informative for me. If we can just get to this juncture of lights without reference to the method of Togal I would appreciate it.
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Re: Elements

Postby Enochian » Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:09 pm

there are issues here that many people have that need to be discussed with your own teacher.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Elements

Postby adinatha » Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:19 pm

Enochian wrote:there are issues here that many people have that need to be discussed with your own teacher.


My question was directed at the Loppon.
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Re: Elements

Postby adinatha » Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:24 pm

Teachers will talk openly about the appearances of Togal and what they mean. Teachers will not talk about specifics of method, like postures and gazes. That's the part that's off-limits. ChNN will talk about appearances of tigle and what they mean. Tigle comes even after five lights. So this mum about my question is bullshit.
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