Bon and the karmic problems of Tibet

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Bon and the karmic problems of Tibet

Postby caveman » Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:36 pm

I once asked a Bonpo Tulku about the karma of a nation.

He told me at a good example of the karma of a nation is Tibet.

When Tibet followed the Bon way it was a strong and powerful nation, feared by its neighbours.

They Indian Buddhism came and 1200 years later were is Tibet, GONE!

A buddhist Tibet was feared by no one and the bulk of its wars were Sect wars between the Nyingma, Sakya, Karma Kagyu, Drikung Kagyu and finally the Gelupa.

He stated that it was the Mongols (foreigners) who decided who would lead Tibet and what its religion would be.

A buddhist Tibet fell to the Chinese the Tulku stated because the Tibetan people embraced a foreign teaching.

What do you think about the national karma of Tibet and what this Bon Tulku told me.
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Re: Bon and the karmic problems of Tibet

Postby plwk » Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:58 am

Everyone have opinions don't they? His is just one of it....
Mine?
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"'I am the owner of my actions (kamma), heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator.
Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir'...
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Re: Bon and the karmic problems of Tibet

Postby Dechen Norbu » Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:29 am

1200 years? :lol:
Not bad then! I think most countries have quite a smaller history! The problem is that we don't know what would have happened if Tibet had no affairs with Buddhadharma, so it's just idle speculation. There's also another thing we should keep in mind. Not only Tibetans take rebirth in Tibet. As fas as we know, most of the Tibetans living there now could have been Europeans in a former life! (Although not likely) :lol: Or Bonpos from the old days! :rolling: Who knows? What seems more likely to me is that if it weren't for Buddhism, probably we wouldn't even be speaking of Bön right now.
There are so many holes in the argument you've presented that I could use it as a fishing net... ;)
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Re: Bon and the karmic problems of Tibet

Postby Caz » Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:40 am

Depends which Bonpo you ask I suppose the new or old variety ?
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
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Re: Bon and the karmic problems of Tibet

Postby Dechen Norbu » Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:56 am

Is there still an old variety?
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Re: Bon and the karmic problems of Tibet

Postby adinatha » Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:15 am

Clearly invoking fear is due to threat of violence. If you believe in karma and it's not just lip service, then you believe that threat of violence is strong negative karma. The problem of Tibet is called impermanence. It is also interdependence. All those blessings bottled up in one place needed to get out. They bubbled out. Of course all the violence against Tibetans is due to violence they imposed in the past, perhaps when they were Bonpos striking fear into their neighbors. All the lies told about Tibetan masters is due to Tibetan masters telling lies in the past. Karma is inescapable. I'm simplifying, but you get me.
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Re: Bon and the karmic problems of Tibet

Postby Gyalpo » Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:39 am

Hey, guys, I know very well, very very well, why it was all happened with Tibet! :jumping: Pay attention, please:

Once upon a time there was a guy in Czech Republic who was interested in yoga, buddhism, mysticism, etc. While he was in meditation one day, he saw an old man comming and entering in him. According to him, it was Marpa Lotsawa and he became his tulku. Later on he claimed, that he has stolen kagyu teachings from Tibet and because of this, the TIbet will suffer!!! :woohoo: His followers up to this days have no interest to meet any lama at all, cos why for? Lamas have no teaching at all, everything was stolen long time ago....

And here it is:

http://mahayana.cz/english/Vishnu/default.html

:D
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Re: Bon and the karmic problems of Tibet

Postby Enochian » Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:25 am

caveman wrote:I once asked a Bonpo Tulku about the karma of a nation.

He told me at a good example of the karma of a nation is Tibet.

When Tibet followed the Bon way it was a strong and powerful nation, feared by its neighbours.

They Indian Buddhism came and 1200 years later were is Tibet, GONE!

A buddhist Tibet was feared by no one and the bulk of its wars were Sect wars between the Nyingma, Sakya, Karma Kagyu, Drikung Kagyu and finally the Gelupa.

He stated that it was the Mongols (foreigners) who decided who would lead Tibet and what its religion would be.

A buddhist Tibet fell to the Chinese the Tulku stated because the Tibetan people embraced a foreign teaching.

What do you think about the national karma of Tibet and what this Bon Tulku told me.



Why do I have a feeling you made this up?

And you do realize that Bon came AFTER buddhism right?

Bon is a renegade branch of Indian Vajrayana (also known as "Tibetan Buddhism").
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Bon and the karmic problems of Tibet

Postby kalden yungdrung » Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:55 am

Enochian wrote:

Why do I have a feeling you made this up?

And you do realize that Bon came AFTER buddhism right?

Bon is a renegade branch of Indian Vajrayana (also known as "Tibetan Buddhism").


Hello Enochian,

Bon is older than Tibetan Buddhism because it was the religion before Dorje Thekpa was set up.
So it is clear to me that Bon is the forerunner of "Tibetan Buddhism e.g. Vajrayana".

Bon has also its own script the Zhang Zhung script and their Dzogchen cycle of teachings the "Zhang Zhung Nyen Gyud "is written in this older language.
So Tibet had before the year 800 already a script, or even several languages, a religion, customs etc.

About the Tibetan karma i would say that if one is playing with the Mongol dragon AND the Chinese Dragon, one can get serious problems.
So this befriended politic of the Mongul Khans with the Gelug and the Chinese Emperors connected with the Kagyu ended in the exodus of the better Tibetans about 1959. Chinese wall tells us that the Chinese were afraid of the Monguls. So Chinese were very interested to be befriended with the Tibetans, because they knew Tibetans were befriended with the Monguls. It was a Gelugpa, who converted a certain Mongol Khan to Vajrayana.

Gelug did rule in Tibet from 1400 to 1959. So when Mao ruled in China one of the first things he conquered was therefore Tibet.

Want to underline that Bon as well Nyingma never played, after 800, a crucial role regarding Tibetan political rulership.
Better said that was not possible because Bon was persecuted and Nyingma had a strange philosophy which was called Dzogchen.
So both were not so very popular in those days by certain Tibetan rulers.

Best wishes
Kalden Yungdrug
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Bon and the karmic problems of Tibet

Postby Enochian » Sat Apr 30, 2011 3:06 pm

I'm going by what the scholars say

http://earlytibet.com/2009/08/24/buddhism-and-bon-iv/

Do you have a carbon dating for Zhang Zhung Nyen Gyud?
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Bon and the karmic problems of Tibet

Postby heart » Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:13 pm

Enochian wrote:I'm going by what the scholars say

http://earlytibet.com/2009/08/24/buddhism-and-bon-iv/

Do you have a carbon dating for Zhang Zhung Nyen Gyud?


You realize that Sam van Schaik's say is that there was a a relligion called Bon before Buddhism?

"The conclusion I’d like to draw is that at least some Buddhists, by the end of the 10th century and perhaps earlier, thought of the funeral rituals practised in earlier times by Tibetan ritual specialists as a religion called Bon."

/magnus
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- Longchenpa
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Re: Bon and the karmic problems of Tibet

Postby Enochian » Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:52 pm

Read the following quote over and over again, until it sinks in:

"But the fact is it’s not at all clear that there was a religion in Tibet called “Bon” before the 11th century."



heart wrote:
You realize that Sam van Schaik's say is that there was a a relligion called Bon before Buddhism?

/magnus



No he is saying the exact opposite. You didn't even read what you quoted, did you?
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Bon and the karmic problems of Tibet

Postby alpha » Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:31 pm

Jean Luc Achard knows these things very well..
Unfortunately he is not around but maybe one day he will visit this place and elucidate some of these matters...

until then do your best...
AOM
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Re: Bon and the karmic problems of Tibet

Postby heart » Sat Apr 30, 2011 9:15 pm

Enochian wrote:Read the following quote over and over again, until it sinks in:

"But the fact is it’s not at all clear that there was a religion in Tibet called “Bon” before the 11th century."



heart wrote:
You realize that Sam van Schaik's say is that there was a a relligion called Bon before Buddhism?

/magnus



No he is saying the exact opposite. You didn't even read what you quoted, did you?



He is saying "The conclusion I’d like to draw is that at least some Buddhists, by the end of the 10th century and perhaps earlier, thought of the funeral rituals practised in earlier times by Tibetan ritual specialists as a religion called Bon." . It is clear enough.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Bon and the karmic problems of Tibet

Postby Enochian » Sat Apr 30, 2011 9:17 pm

heart wrote:He is saying "The conclusion I’d like to draw is that at least some Buddhists, by the end of the 10th century and perhaps earlier, thought of the funeral rituals practised in earlier times by Tibetan ritual specialists as a religion called Bon." . It is clear enough.

/magnus





In this sentence, he is saying 10th century buddhists RETROACTIVELY applied the term "Bon"

Why not try reading it?
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Bon and the karmic problems of Tibet

Postby Tilopa » Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:45 pm

Enochian wrote:And you do realize that Bon came AFTER buddhism right?


Maybe but maybe not...

"According to the Bon tradition itself, it was founded by Shenrab Miwo, who lived thirty thousand years ago. That would place him somewhere in the Stone Age. I don't think this means he was a caveman. A common way to show great respect to a lineage is to say it is ancient. The actual dates of his lifespan are not possible to prove in any case. Shenrab Miwo lived in Omolungring. The description of this place seems to be a mixture of ideas about Shambhala, Mt. Meru, and Mt. Kailash. It is the description of an ideal spiritual land. It was said to be within a larger area called Tazig. The word "Tazig" can be found both in Persian and Arabic to refer to either Persia or Arabia. In other contexts, it refers to a nomadic tribe. In the Bon tradition, Tazig is described as being to the west of the kingdom of Zhang-zhung, which was in Western Tibet.

This suggests that Bon came from Central Asia, and probably an Iranian cultural area. It is possible that Shenrab Miwo lived in an ancient Iranian culture and then came to Zhang-zhung. Some versions say he came sometime between the eleventh and seventh centuries B.C.E. That is also a very long time ago and, again, there is no way of proving one or the other position. What is clear is that by the time of the founding of the Yarlung Dynasty in Central Tibet (127 B.C.E.) there was already something of a native tradition. We do not even know what it was called at that time."

More here: http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... dhism.html
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Bon and the karmic problems of Tibet (dealing with report)

Postby adinatha » Sun May 01, 2011 12:12 am

The notion that ancient Tajiks had A path to buddhahood ...
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Re: Bon and the karmic problems of Tibet

Postby Malcolm » Sun May 01, 2011 12:39 am

adinatha wrote:The notion that ancient Tajiks had A path to buddhahood ...



I see you are keeping up the long Drigung tradition of anti-Bon polemics.
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Re: Bon and the karmic problems of Tibet

Postby adinatha » Sun May 01, 2011 12:44 am

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:The notion that ancient Tajiks had A path to buddhahood ...



I see you are keeping up the long Drigung tradition of anti-Bon polemics.


Honestly I had no idea there was a long Drigung tradition of anti-Bon polemics. I'm just kiddin ya. I'm sure the Tazik people had a 20,000 year old high culture.
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Re: Bon and the karmic problems of Tibet

Postby Malcolm » Sun May 01, 2011 12:49 am

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:The notion that ancient Tajiks had A path to buddhahood ...



I see you are keeping up the long Drigung tradition of anti-Bon polemics.


Honestly I had no idea there was a long Drigung tradition of anti-Bon polemics. I'm just kiddin ya. I'm sure the Tazik people had a 20,000 year old high culture.



Yes, the first Buddhist polemical mention of Bon occurs in the initial commentarial literature of dgongs gcig by rdor she. The earliest Buddhist account of Bon was penned by Jigten Sumgon. Most other Buddhist presentations of Bon follow his rough outline.

There are other presentations of Bon which are more favorable, notably Guru Chowang's Great History of Treasures where he describes Tonpa Shenrab as a nirmanakāya. Guru Chowang is the original terton who revealed the seven line supplication to Guru Rinpoche.

N
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Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
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