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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:46 pm 
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Was wondering if anyone knows the history of how the Five Long Life Sisters joined with Nyingmapa. I'm only familiar with how they became disciples of Milarepa.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:36 pm 
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adinatha wrote:
Was wondering if anyone knows the history of how the Five Long Life Sisters joined with Nyingmapa. I'm only familiar with how they became disciples of Milarepa.



Mmmmmm, they were tamed by Padmsambhava?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:52 pm 
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Oh now I remember. The Mila story says they were almost tamed by Padmasambhava but he didn't give them deep dharma teachings so they went back to being bad. Then, they badgered Mila and he gave them teachings that finally turned them into dharma beings. Is that about right?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:54 pm 
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adinatha wrote:
Oh now I remember. The Mila story says they were almost tamed by Padmasambhava but he didn't give them deep dharma teachings so they went back to being bad. Then, they badgered Mila and he gave them teachings that finally turned them into dharma beings. Is that about right?


The twelve Tenma are protectors of the Dzogchen teachings.

So that detail is not correct.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:00 am 
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Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Oh now I remember. The Mila story says they were almost tamed by Padmasambhava but he didn't give them deep dharma teachings so they went back to being bad. Then, they badgered Mila and he gave them teachings that finally turned them into dharma beings. Is that about right?


The twelve Tenma are protectors of the Dzogchen teachings.

So that detail is not correct.


This based on your scholarship that the Mila songs are what a lie? Oh I forget everything written in a Dzogchen text is true, everything else is a lie.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:58 am 
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adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Oh now I remember. The Mila story says they were almost tamed by Padmasambhava but he didn't give them deep dharma teachings so they went back to being bad. Then, they badgered Mila and he gave them teachings that finally turned them into dharma beings. Is that about right?


The twelve Tenma are protectors of the Dzogchen teachings.

So that detail is not correct.


This based on your scholarship that the Mila songs are what a lie? Oh I forget everything written in a Dzogchen text is true, everything else is a lie.


The twelve tenma have been protectors of Dzogchen teachings since Padmasambhava tamed them and entrusted them with various cycles of Dzogchen teachings that are under their care.

Whether you choose to accept this or not is of little concern to me.

N

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 1:15 am 
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Milarepa tamed them...

oh what's the use.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 1:18 am 
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adinatha wrote:
Milarepa tamed them...

oh what's the use.



You are basing this on a biography that was written five hundred years after the fact.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 1:46 am 
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Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Milarepa tamed them...

oh what's the use.



You are basing this on a biography that was written five hundred years after the fact.


So let me get this straight. The Nyingmpa texts are reliable and the Kagyu texts are not. You are saying the Nyingmpa lineage has a factual basis and the kagyu lineage is based on lies. I have news for you. They are both based on lies. Either that or they both have a deeper import. None of the "facts" reported anywhere in Indian/Tibetan literature have any shred of evidentiary value. If you think otherwise, you are totally deluding yourself. At some level it's all hype. At another level is faith. You need to face that, and stop making it seem like you have facts. You don't. Period.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:15 am 
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Like Brahma and the Naga king apparently creating difficulties and trials for Yeshe Tsogyal in her sufferings before full enlightenment and upon her success their offering her all their vast riches and even life-forces, Jetsun Mila had a short 3 day session which was minor compared to Yeshe Tsogyal or his own other trials as they were under oath and ultimately it was good for both sides. These things work in complicated ways. Traditionally many didn't even mention various schools' & lineages' & termas' etc. protectors' name unless they had to, which was maybe going too far but it's understandable as it's best to be safe considering their various classes & natures.
http://www.himalayanart.org/search/set.cfm?setID=366
http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/Five ... _Long_Life

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Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:26 am 
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adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Milarepa tamed them...

oh what's the use.



You are basing this on a biography that was written five hundred years after the fact.


So let me get this straight. The Nyingmpa texts are reliable and the Kagyu texts are not.


Tsang Nyong Heruka's bio of Mila is an inspired piece of historical fiction based on the many oral traditions he collected travelling all over the Himalayan regions where Milarepa wandered. While I have no doubt that Mila adopted the Tsheringma sisters as guardians since the presence of the five Tseringma sisters as guardians in the Kagyu school is well attested, I don't see any reason to accept Tsang Nyon's narratives at face value.

Further, the permission ritual of Tseringma in the Kagyu sNgags mDzod clearly explains how Padmasambhava bound Tseringma under the secret name "Vajrasamantabhadri", and later how in particular Tseringma was made a specific guardian of Kagyu school by Milarepa.

As I read the account given in this permission ritual, Tseringma was testing Milarepa's yogic ability.

Finally, there is no contradiction between stating, for example, "...among non-human disciples, Tseringma was Milarepa's chief student" and understanding that the twelve tenma were Dzogchen guardians from the beginning.

Generally, however, for Dzogchen, among the twelve Tenma, Dorje Yudronma is regarded as more important. For the Kagyus, Tseringma is more important.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 12:19 am 
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The story of Tseringma is in the Hundred Thousand Songs, not Tsang Nyong Heruka's biography.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:15 am 
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Jinzang wrote:
The story of Tseringma is in the Hundred Thousand Songs, not Tsang Nyong Heruka's biography.



It's in both places.

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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 2:18 am 
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I checked the book before posting. I missed two brief passages which, thanks to Google, I could find in the Evans Wentz translation. The more relevant of the two goes,

Quote:
Then came the Goddess Tseringma to test me by displaying various super-nornal powers.


The other passage is

Quote:
Coming thence to Chubar, he preached three sermons regarding Tseringma.


So while it's fair to say that the story of Tseringma is mentioned in Milarepa's most famous bography, don't think it's correct to say that it's in Milarepa's biography. But words are slippery and you are entitled to your interpretation.

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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 3:17 am 
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Jinzang wrote:
I checked the book before posting. I missed two brief passages which, thanks to Google, I could find in the Evans Wentz translation. The more relevant of the two goes,

Quote:
Then came the Goddess Tseringma to test me by displaying various super-nornal powers.


The other passage is

Quote:
Coming thence to Chubar, he preached three sermons regarding Tseringma.


So while it's fair to say that the story of Tseringma is mentioned in Milarepa's most famous bography, don't think it's correct to say that it's in Milarepa's biography. But words are slippery and you are entitled to your interpretation.


The point was two-fold. Tseringma had been tamed by Padmasambhava, not Mila. Second, that Tseringma appeared to test Mila's yogic power.

Thanks for reinforcing my point.

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