Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Moderator: Tibetan Buddhism moderators

Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:21 pm

Namdrol wrote:You have a lot of karmic connection with Dzogchen. But you can screw it up in three ways: not protecting your samaya, not practicing in a careful and precise way, and giving too much weight to conceptual experiences.

N


I'm aware of all this.
CAW!
User avatar
adinatha
 
Posts: 886
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:07 am

Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:22 pm

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:You have a lot of karmic connection with Dzogchen. But you can screw it up in three ways: not protecting your samaya, not practicing in a careful and precise way, and giving too much weight to conceptual experiences.

N


I'm aware of all this.


Excellent.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 12236
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby username » Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:55 am

All I know is that Dzogchen is not poetry, a Dzogchenpa's life is not easy in various aspects and luxurious and it's better if I re-read and contemplate and practice in solitude and daily life a few concise teachings or even one by a very early ati-lineage mahaguru or a rarely translated Dzogchen tantra's self-summary or terma or by a living lineage guru who is even more precious and soak in the essence of those few and simple yet profound pointers for years in different ways.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
username
 
Posts: 759
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:23 pm

Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Dechen Norbu » Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:04 am

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:You have a lot of karmic connection with Dzogchen. But you can screw it up in three ways: not protecting your samaya, not practicing in a careful and precise way, and giving too much weight to conceptual experiences.

N


I'm aware of all this.

Then you should think twice before posting the way you did.

EDIT: and you did it all over. You're free to post as you feel like and I don't intend to give you any lessons about it, just share one or two things. Feel free to utterly disregard my words. I mean well.
First, people may end up taking you as being completely full of yourself (that India thing being a project of your family, the oldest in earth and all that shebang) and you being yourself a fool (screaming to the winds all those visionary experiences, meditating since the age of 5 and so on... many people don't even believe those experiences can happen). It may all be completely true and I haven't a single reason to doubt you, but those, forgive me the word, grandiose declarations lack a little decorum, if you know what I mean. People may take you the wrong way, you know? Then you won't pass the message you want, because people will remember those declarations and not what you intended to say. Just think about it. Your message should speak for itself because of its wisdom, clarity and compassion without you needing to put all that personal weight behind it. It doesn't help, believe me. :smile:
With far greater tittles and even greater humbleness, HH the Dalai Lama got a Nobel Prize and wherever he goes you see a mob cheering him, drinking his words as being nectar. It's that kind of decorum I'm talking about.

Forgive me if I offend you somehow, but I would feel a fake if I held these thoughts to myself after reading you.

Best wishes!
User avatar
Dechen Norbu
 
Posts: 2798
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:50 pm

Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:19 am

Dechen Norbu wrote:Then you should think twice before posting the way you did.

EDIT: and you did it all over. You're free to post as you feel like and I don't intend to give you any lessons about it, just share one or two things. Feel free to utterly disregard my words. I mean well.
First, people may end up taking you as being completely full of yourself (that India thing being a project of your family, the oldest in earth and all that shebang) and you being yourself a fool (screaming to the winds all those visionary experiences, meditating since the age of 5 and so on... many people don't even believe those experiences can happen). It may all be completely true and I haven't a single reason to doubt you, but those, forgive me the word, grandiose declarations lack a little decorum, if you know what I mean. People may take you the wrong way, you know? Then you won't pass the message you want, because people will remember those declarations and not what you intended to say. Just think about it. Your message should speak for itself because of its wisdom, clarity and compassion without you needing to put all that personal weight behind it. It doesn't help, believe me. :smile:
With far greater tittles and even greater humbleness, HH the Dalai Lama got a Nobel Prize and wherever he goes you see a mob cheering him, drinking his words as being nectar. It's that kind of decorum I'm talking about.

Forgive me if I offend you somehow, but I would feel a fake if I held these thoughts to myself after reading you.

Best wishes!


It's all relative, because it is totally impossible to know who is a charlatan and who isn't in this dharma world. There are those reputed to be masters, but to those in the know they are charlatans. There are those who are reputed to be charlatans and to those in the know they are the genuine article. There are those reputed to be masters who can only give good explanations but no blessings. There are masters who can't explain things well, but you can get pure blessings. Concern about reputation is one of the 8 worldly concerns. I don't care about this. I just put the facts out there and let it be what it is. I reached out to those here who would be my brothers and sisters and found opposition. It is what it is. I know who my supporters are, and they are no chump change. I feel very secure in myself, that's why I talk openly. I have no illusions about becoming a Nobel Prize winner. I'm just little old me with my little old dreams living my little old life. I do appreciate your concern, however. My advice to the world is to open up and love. Say all your crazy things you want to say. Let's hug. :group:
CAW!
User avatar
adinatha
 
Posts: 886
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:07 am

Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Dechen Norbu » Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:37 am

I'm sure you mean well, adinatha. I'm not suggesting you should worry about your rep. It's, as you say, one of the 8 wordly dharmas. Now, people may also get the wrong impression that you hope for fame and fear insignificance, another wordily preoccupation to be avoided, right? This doesn't mean you do. No, the idea is that communication also means a concern for what others will make of our message, how will it get there and be interpreted. The way we present ourselves may change their attitude and the message may end up not passing as we wanted. For instance, if I present myself a la gangster style and say "take care" you'd think you better watch out. If I present myself with friendly manners you'll interpret that I care for your well being.
Saying it's all relative is too much abused these days. Why don't people remember instead Padmasambhava's view high as the sky and action refined as tsampa?
I'd say lets let enlightened masters act crazy wisdom style and know how to understand them. We ourselves should be more careful out of common sense and compassion, not out of a holier than though attitude, sanctimonious cloak or anything like that. Anyway, I said why I've written that post to you. I was more or less expecting that answer based in your post in the Zen sub forum (the one that made me laugh my pants out :lol: ). You will do as you wish, friend. :cheers: For me its the same. I quite like your inputs, even when I don't agree with them. :smile:
User avatar
Dechen Norbu
 
Posts: 2798
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:50 pm

Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:01 am

Dechen Norbu wrote:I'm sure you mean well, adinatha. I'm not suggesting you should worry about your rep. It's, as you say, one of the 8 wordly dharmas. Now, people may also get the wrong impression that you hope for fame and fear insignificance, another wordily preoccupation to be avoided, right? This doesn't mean you do. No, the idea is that communication also means a concern for what others will make of our message, how will it get there and be interpreted. The way we present ourselves may change their attitude and the message may end up not passing as we wanted. For instance, if I present myself a la gangster style and say "take care" you'd think you better watch out. If I present myself with friendly manners you'll interpret that I care for your well being.
Saying it's all relative is too much abused these days. Why don't people remember instead Padmasambhava's view high as the sky and action refined as tsampa?
I'd say lets let enlightened masters act crazy wisdom style and know how to understand them. We ourselves should be more careful out of common sense and compassion, not out of a holier than though attitude, sanctimonious cloak or anything like that. Anyway, I said why I've written that post to you. I was more or less expecting that answer based in your post in the Zen sub forum (the one that made me laugh my pants out :lol: ). You will do as you wish, friend. :cheers: For me its the same. I quite like your inputs, even when I don't agree with them. :smile:


I do appreciate your care and concern for my well being. I have a little problem. I might actually be crazy already. Sometimes I'm very professional and smooth. But other times I'm the opposite. I have different personalities at war. It's like an inner teaching of nonself. I've always been like this. Sometimes I'm careful. Sometimes I'm reckless. I have no control over which way I go. I fight with the law all the time. Seriously. I'm a handful. But my mind is always resting in the natural state. I just observe it all blankly. I've dissociated myself from my selves. It could be a disorder. It could also be a kind of blessing in disguise. Just a heads up. I'm bound to say some pretty wild things. Please forgive me ahead of time. So I don't have any illusions about being famous. I already know about my little issue, and already know how that will turn out. Infamous is more likely. :twisted: One thing to know about me on another side is that I'm honest. I never lie. I also never hate. I just love. I might get upset and holler if I see injustice, but that's love too. I love you all. You are my dharma friends. Dharma friends are more precious than all the jewels in the all possible universes. There hasn't been an Indian vajrayana yogi in a long time. You've read the stories. Okay? We're frickin' out there. It's in our blood. You also just have to get a little used to how Indian yogis talk. We talk BIG! It's all just funny. :woohoo: But also, keep in mind, that I'm not a fool. I have something from the yoga side that is not bullshit at all. The bright ones here will know it when they see it.
CAW!
User avatar
adinatha
 
Posts: 886
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:07 am

Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby heart » Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:30 am

Seriously, I feel like you guys are on some drug I don't know about. The discussion has no shape or continuity at all the last few days. One should discuss ones experience with ones teacher, no one else. A thread on Dzogchen experience is a very bad idea.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 3108
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby username » Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:53 pm

One can withhold some experiences even from one's root guru for various categories of reasons and some great masters never discussed their visionary experiences with anyone. Of course the main persistent problem is one always forgets that ultimately, one does not exist as such or even otherwise.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
username
 
Posts: 759
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:23 pm

Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Enochian » Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:25 pm

Hi Adinatha,

Do not allow visionary experiences deter you from the natural state.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
Enochian
 
Posts: 364
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:19 pm

Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:32 pm

Enochian wrote:Hi Adinatha,

Do not allow visionary experiences deter you from the natural state.


That is excellent advice Enochian. My teachers and I had our hearts to hearts last night. I'm good.
CAW!
User avatar
adinatha
 
Posts: 886
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:07 am

Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:46 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Depends on the practitioner. Depends on what they feel they need to do. The only thing that is absolutely essential is guru yoga followed by song of the vajra.

N


That is ChNN talking. Jim Valby told me the Song of Vajra is his terma tradition. I took this to mean Song of Vajra is not indispensable, because there are so many guru yoga methods. Whether you sing a song, visualize a picture or hum a mantra, you are doing something to get into not doing something. What that doing something is, is blessings.



What I meant was guru yoga is indispensable. After that, Song of the vajra is indispensable. But one cannot just sing song of the vajra out loud anywhere. it would be strange. Of course, you can mentally sing it everywhere.

Song of the vajra is not just ChNN's terma tradition. It is very important. Key in Dzogchen teachings. I cannot emphasize how much how important it is.


:focus: Okay. There are the three series of Ati right? Then, in the third, there are also three. Longchen Nyingthig is the highest. Then, in Longchen Nyingthig there are levels and Trileg Yeshe Lama is the quintessence. There is guru yoga at each of these levels. The guru yidam has outer, inner, secret, super secret and super duper secret. Tigle Gyachen is the super duper secret and it is a devotional sadhana connected with Longchenpa's mind and the Yeshe Lama, namely the fourth Appearance of Exhaustion into Dharmata. Then, there is the guru of inseparability, the Yeshe Lama (tregcho/togal). The final realizations of the two, Tigle Gyachen and Yeshe Lama, are identical. One is not a stepping stone to the other. However, practitioners generally treat Tigle Gyachen as preparatory, because of the reknown of Togal as swiftness. In reality, both are functional equivalents, mutually support one another and provide equal means to complete realization of Longchen Rabjam (vast knowledge). This is how it is explained at Ontrul Tenpa'i Wangchuk's monastery in Tibet. When one approaches this level of practice, fields of knowledge open up within Longchenpa's all-knowing mind. Then, one can understand how, in his treasuries, the description level and the experience level converge. The written word even can be a "relic of the dharmakaya," and inseparable from it. To escape the beginner's trap of play-word dancing, one must take up the practice of Tigle Gyachen. I'm not here to challenge or discredit anyone else's methodology or path. I'm merely wish to share this very amazing and imminently accessible path. All it takes is a transmission, easy, devotion, easy, and consistent practice, hard. Guru supreme! Jai Jai Longchen Rabjam Drimey Ozer Jai Jai!
CAW!
User avatar
adinatha
 
Posts: 886
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:07 am

Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby heart » Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:48 pm

:sage: :smile: :alien:
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 3108
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby gnegirl » Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:02 pm

:popcorn: Diet coke anyone?
"Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise." --Surangama Sutra

Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?
User avatar
gnegirl
 
Posts: 386
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2010 8:22 pm
Location: Waponi Woo

Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Malcolm » Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:03 pm

adinatha wrote:
:focus: Okay. There are the three series of Ati right? Then, in the third, there are also three.



No, the upadeshas series is divided into four cycles: outer, inner, secret and unsurpassed utterly secret.

Longchen Nyingthig is the highest.


Parts of klong chen snyin thig are connected with the unsurpassed utterly secret cycle. Most of klong chen snying thig is mahāyoga sadhanas.

This is how it is explained at Ontrul Tenpa'i Wangchuk's monastery in Tibet.


Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo explains that among snying thig teachings, the dgongs pa zang thal is the most profound.

Khyentse's Chetsun Nyingthig cycle declares "“E ma, e ma. In the future, in later times, yogins practicing the heart of the heart essence wishing liberation at this time should only meditate on me, Chetsun Simhesvara."

Yeshe Lama is basically a commentary on the Lama Yangthig. Wonderful, to be sure.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 12236
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:22 pm

Sure. My point was to leave aside all levels except "unsurpassed utterly secret" level. Longchen Nyingthig is the Nyingthig of the Nyingthigs, because Longchenpa gathered all the Nyingthig transmissions and took the essence.
CAW!
User avatar
adinatha
 
Posts: 886
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:07 am

Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Enochian » Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:33 pm

adinatha wrote:Sure. My point was to leave aside all levels except "unsurpassed utterly secret" level. Longchen Nyingthig is the Nyingthig of the Nyingthigs, because Longchenpa gathered all the Nyingthig transmissions and took the essence.



jigme lingpa not longchenpa
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
Enochian
 
Posts: 364
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:19 pm

Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby username » Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:37 pm

LNN is the highest only for it's practitioners. There are fresher major cycles from A to Z producing results on all levels too. They all should be looked at with equanimity not discrimination and hierarchical categorization, reality is not like that. As for words and concepts, one uses a torch to point towards and shine the path home and once there it's not needed any more. If in the middle of wilderness in the dark one gazes at the torch's light, it only blinds any little vision there is. Furthere, if there is even any slight hint of characteristics whatsoever, then that state is not ineffable dharmakaya.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
username
 
Posts: 759
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:23 pm

Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:26 pm

username wrote:LNN is the highest only for it's practitioners. There are fresher major cycles from A to Z producing results on all levels too. They all should be looked at with equanimity not discrimination and hierarchical categorization, reality is not like that. As for words and concepts, one uses a torch to point towards and shine the path home and once there it's not needed any more. If in the middle of wilderness in the dark one gazes at the torch's light, it only blinds any little vision there is. Furthere, if there is even any slight hint of characteristics whatsoever, then that state is not ineffable dharmakaya.


Who are you anonymous username? I think I love you. :hug: Please PM me. I like the sentiment. However, there is something of a shortfall between the sentiment and the reality. There are very very very

very

very

few Atiyoga practitioners today who have stabilized rigpa to the extent that they can get any good results from Togal. My point is that the one's who are actually doing something successful do a devotional guru yoga sadhana. My next point is that Tigle Gyachen is an easy one to do, not only that its translated, not only that its as powerful as anything, and not only that I can point folks who are interested into its direction without violating anything. I'm holding out a torch.

As to everything you write on these forums... :applause:
CAW!
User avatar
adinatha
 
Posts: 886
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:07 am

Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:33 pm

Enochian wrote:
adinatha wrote:Sure. My point was to leave aside all levels except "unsurpassed utterly secret" level. Longchen Nyingthig is the Nyingthig of the Nyingthigs, because Longchenpa gathered all the Nyingthig transmissions and took the essence.



jigme lingpa not longchenpa


Ahem. Sorry all the while I meant to write Longchenpa complied the Nyingthig Yabshi. Right, LN is mind terma Jigme Lingpa where the essence of Nyingthig is there with Tigle Gyachen, etc., etc. :oops:
CAW!
User avatar
adinatha
 
Posts: 886
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:07 am

PreviousNext

Return to Dzogchen

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests

>