Great doubt, great enlightenment...

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
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retrofuturist
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Great doubt, great enlightenment...

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:39 pm

Live in concord, with mutual appreciation, without disputing, blending like milk and water, viewing each other with kindly eyes.

Ngawang Drolma
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Re: Great doubt, great enlightenment...

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Fri Sep 11, 2009 3:01 am

Hi Retro,

I'm not a Cha'an practitioner, but this reads to me as a prompt to investigate and pursue the dharma with vigor. A sense of doubt, or I might say practicality is a good quality imho.

Speaking from the point of view of a practitioner of Tibetan Buddhism, pursing the path definitely takes committment and motivation. And taking the words of a teacher or sutra, and investigating and digesting on one's own is recommended. The specific reference to "small enlightenment" vs. "great enlightenment," makes me think of the idea that you see fruits of practice and study that are comprable to how much you put into them.

While I don't think it's necessarily helpful to reject everything out of hand before it's proven, nor is it good to accept any teacher or teaching that comes my way without investigation, there's some place in the middle that works for me. Thanks for this nice quote, it's a good reminder.

Best,
Drolma :)

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retrofuturist
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Re: Great doubt, great enlightenment...

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:01 am

Live in concord, with mutual appreciation, without disputing, blending like milk and water, viewing each other with kindly eyes.

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zoltan
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Re: Great doubt, great enlightenment...

Postby zoltan » Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:42 pm

Hello,

I agree with the middle path. Give things a chance, don't judge too soon but always investigate. It is also important to investigate the investigator and make sure that we don't ask questions with a full cup. So many times I base my doubts on false premise and dicriminations and at the end just end up with a head full of garbage.

The habit of quickly responding to things, always analyzing disecting can also hinder true experience. Sometimes it's better to let things be. Things naturally become clear with time and an open mind.

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Luke
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Re: Great doubt, great enlightenment...

Postby Luke » Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:04 pm


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m0rl0ck
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Re: Great doubt, great enlightenment...

Postby m0rl0ck » Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:15 am

Ride the horse in the direction its going.

~Werner Erhard

Ngawang Drolma
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Re: Great doubt, great enlightenment...

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Tue Nov 17, 2009 7:15 pm

M0rl0ck, cool link :)
I thought you were of the Japanese persuasion with your Buddhist practice. Interesting!
Perhaps you've dabbled in Zen and Cha'an?

Best,
Laura

Ngawang Drolma
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Re: Great doubt, great enlightenment...

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Tue Nov 17, 2009 7:16 pm

I think if I could take this thread and ask a different question, it will be:

Of what use is doubt for us in our study and practice? And what do we really mean by doubt?

Thanks,
Laura :)

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Karma Dondrup Tashi
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Re: Great doubt, great enlightenment...

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:43 pm


hungryghost
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Re: Great doubt, great enlightenment...

Postby hungryghost » Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:38 am

It's said in zen/chan that you need three things to effectively pursue practice, great faith, great doubt, and great determination...Chan Master Sheng Yen wrote that they come in that order.
Great faith in your Buddha Nature, your teacher, the method your using
the method works to create great doubt (hua tou, koan), a burning desire to 'get to the bottom of things' as morlock said very eloquently. I think having those big questions like mentioned earlier "why do beings suffer" etc can help fuel this greatly. Great determination to practice hard comes from this feeling of doubt..
thats the way i understand it at least, and i'm trying to practice in this direction
:namaste:

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m0rl0ck
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Re: Great doubt, great enlightenment...

Postby m0rl0ck » Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:25 am

Ride the horse in the direction its going.

~Werner Erhard

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m0rl0ck
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Re: Great doubt, great enlightenment...

Postby m0rl0ck » Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:29 am

Ride the horse in the direction its going.

~Werner Erhard

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catmoon
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Re: Great doubt, great enlightenment...

Postby catmoon » Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:37 pm

I am currently involved with great doubt quite personally. My confidence in the sutras has taken a crippling blow. It feels like walking along a clifftop and suddenly feeling the earth and rock start to slide away out from underneath you. In such a situation one dives towards solid ground and grabs whatever one can. The tree branch I caught ahold of was certain modern teachings that have inspired me. So here I dangle above the abyss.

Now all I need is for some twerp to come along and ask me why Bodhidharma went to China.


I think I am in for a wholesale re-examination of my beliefs. The predicament is awkward, but the view is nice.
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.

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ground
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Re: Great doubt, great enlightenment...

Postby ground » Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:18 am

Hi all

I understand "doubt" in this context as being a synonym for [an attitude of] "renunciation".

tatpurusa
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Re: Great doubt, great enlightenment...

Postby tatpurusa » Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:17 pm

I think doubt here means the realization that all contents of the mind,
all thinkable, imaginable and communicatable manifestations are based on
more or less arbitrary concepts, therefore about as true as false.

If one takes them for granted, if one believes them and considers them reality, one
lives in avidya or self deception.

Doubting them means not confining oneself to the limitation of concepts based on the duality
of perciever and percieved. This doubt is an openness to a non-dual, direct experience of reality as
it is, without the division created by the concept of "I".

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ground
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Re: Great doubt, great enlightenment...

Postby ground » Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:26 am


tatpurusa
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Re: Great doubt, great enlightenment...

Postby tatpurusa » Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:58 am


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ground
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Re: Great doubt, great enlightenment...

Postby ground » Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:51 pm

Dear tatpurusa

I am very familiar with your mode of reasoning.

However I prefer a different mode of reasoning, which means: Zen is not my cup of tea ;)

Kind regards

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m0rl0ck
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Re: Great doubt, great enlightenment...

Postby m0rl0ck » Sat Dec 05, 2009 4:30 pm

Ride the horse in the direction its going.

~Werner Erhard

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Dexing
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Re: Great doubt, great enlightenment...

Postby Dexing » Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:14 pm

nopalabhyate...


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