Elements

Elements

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:25 pm

cloudburst wrote:
So you are saying that which flows through the channels is Nitrogen, Oxygen, Argon and Carbon Dioxide?



Vāyu is part of the rūpa skandha. It is one of the four mahābhutani, great elements. When we breath in, the air we breath is vāyu. In the body, that vāyu that we breath in becomes the ten vāyus depending on how vāyu is functioning in a given part of the body.

This is nothing mysterious. Unfortunately, Buddhists have been unwittingly influenced by new age concepts about channels, cakras and so on.

N
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby cloudburst » Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:52 pm

Namdrol wrote:
cloudburst wrote:
So you are saying that which flows through the channels is Nitrogen, Oxygen, Argon and Carbon Dioxide?



Vāyu is part of the rūpa skandha. It is one of the four mahābhutani, great elements. When we breath in, the air we breath is vāyu. In the body, that vāyu that we breath in becomes the ten vāyus depending on how vāyu is functioning in a given part of the body.

This is nothing mysterious. Unfortunately, Buddhists have been unwittingly influenced by new age concepts about channels, cakras and so on.

N

So you ARE saying that which flows through the channels is Nitrogen, Oxygen etc?
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:01 pm

cloudburst wrote:So you ARE saying that which flows through the channels is Nitrogen, Oxygen etc?


Well, we don't breath anything else, do we?

What flows through the channels in our body is vāyu (air) that has been refined in our lungs.

Otherwise, practices like caṇdali yoga would make no sense, would they?

prāṇa is a vāyu i.e. prāṇa vāyu (srog dzin rlung) aka "the life sustaining wind". This comes from our breath and no where else.

N
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:30 pm

Namdrol wrote:
cloudburst wrote:So you ARE saying that which flows through the channels is Nitrogen, Oxygen etc?


Well, we don't breath anything else, do we?

What flows through the channels in our body is vāyu (air) that has been refined in our lungs.

Otherwise, practices like caṇdali yoga would make no sense, would they?

prāṇa is a vāyu i.e. prāṇa vāyu (srog dzin rlung) aka "the life sustaining wind". This comes from our breath and no where else.

N


Something doesn't make sense to me. What is a channel exactly? Air goes into the lungs, the oxygen is taken into blood stream. The yogic method of channels and winds uses channels that are not lungs or blood vessels. How the three channels meet at the base of the body is not connected to a cavity or passage where gas could travel. These are taken to be energetic or sensory in nature. It is more nervous system related. When nerves transmit signals there is a kind of very fast movement of information and electric transmission. What am I missing here?
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby cloudburst » Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:41 pm

Namdrol wrote:
cloudburst wrote:So you ARE saying that which flows through the channels is Nitrogen, Oxygen etc?


Well, we don't breath anything else, do we?

What flows through the channels in our body is vāyu (air) that has been refined in our lungs.

Otherwise, practices like caṇdali yoga would make no sense, would they?

prāṇa is a vāyu i.e. prāṇa vāyu (srog dzin rlung) aka "the life sustaining wind". This comes from our breath and no where else.

N


That all seems rather unlikely to me. For example, the very subtle wind that becomes the
illuory body is part water vapor?
Nitrogen is the substantial cause of the rupakaya?
The very subtle wind that goes from life to life is part Argon?
I'm sure I am misunderstanding your point here, I must be.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:02 am

cloudburst wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
cloudburst wrote:So you ARE saying that which flows through the channels is Nitrogen, Oxygen etc?


Well, we don't breath anything else, do we?

What flows through the channels in our body is vāyu (air) that has been refined in our lungs.

Otherwise, practices like caṇdali yoga would make no sense, would they?

prāṇa is a vāyu i.e. prāṇa vāyu (srog dzin rlung) aka "the life sustaining wind". This comes from our breath and no where else.

N


That all seems rather unlikely to me. For example, the very subtle wind that becomes the
illuory body is part water vapor?
Nitrogen is the substantial cause of the rupakaya?
The very subtle wind that goes from life to life is part Argon?
I'm sure I am misunderstanding your point here, I must be.



There are five elements: earth, water, fire, air and space -- they are material, whether coarse or subtle.

When transmigration happens at the time of death, the mind/wind leaves specific orifices of the body, or channel openings. This would bot be necessary if the wind upon which the mind is mounted was not itself physical and material.

For example, when you have flatulence, this comes from the apana vāyu, the downward-voiding wind. That flatus is apana-vāyu.

Vāyu in the body is coarse or subtle depending upon how much it is moving. But it is still something physical, part of the rūpa skandha.

If you cannot accept this explanation, then you have to invent terms that do not exist in the original Tibetan and Sanskrit texts, such as the Vajramālā tantra that explain things like vāyus and so on.

I prefer to not to interpolate new age ideas onto Vajrayāna. So, I accept that vāyu in the body comes from the breath. If you think about it long enough, you will understand that I am correct. You need to study tantric embryology. When you do, this will make more sense to you.

N
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby adinatha » Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:09 am

I have always found that wind, fire, water and earth are confusing terms. I prefer motility, temperature, liquidity and solidity. These are retained by basic physics and tend to make the yogic practices jibe with modern understandings. Furthermore, going beyond these gross elements are the subtle "elements" of the sub-atomic world, those would be attraction, repulsion and neutrality (space). I have found these to be extremely apropos, because the three poisons of samsara are attachment, aversion and ignorance. I feel these are a perfect correspondence. Thus, in the realization of Atiyoga or Mahamudra, when grasping has ceased by recognition of the nature of basic space dharmadhatu, attachment and aversion have ceased; thus, the basic cause of matter, that is, attraction, repulsion and deluded space are unbound. Because dharmadhatu has qualities deluded ordinary space does not, there are the three kayas and the body, speech and mind of buddha. When this is understood, there's no question why rebirth happens, because grasping hasn't ceased, as simple as that.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:15 am

adinatha wrote:I have always found that wind, fire, water and earth are confusing terms. I prefer motility, temperature, liquidity and solidity. These are retained by basic physics and tend to make the yogic practices jibe with modern understandings. Furthermore, going beyond these gross elements are the subtle "elements" of the sub-atomic world, those would be attraction, repulsion and neutrality (space). I have found these to be extremely apropos, because the three poisons of samsara are attachment, aversion and ignorance. I feel these are a perfect correspondence. Thus, in the realization of Atiyoga or Mahamudra, when grasping has ceased by recognition of the nature of basic space dharmadhatu, attachment and aversion have ceased; thus, the basic cause of matter, that is, attraction, repulsion and deluded space are unbound. Because dharmadhatu has qualities deluded ordinary space does not, there are the three kayas and the body, speech and mind of buddha.



Earth, air fire and water in one sense refer to the three states of matter with the presence or absence of heat being responsible for phase transition between states.

This replicates down no matter how far you go in physical reality.

But for our purposes, for example, discussing pranayāma and other such issues -- it obvious that vāyu is a name for the air that we are breathing in.

Basic space, incidentally, is a very bad rendering of dharmadhātu, and is not supported by commentaries.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby adinatha » Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:33 am

Namdrol wrote:Earth, air fire and water in one sense refer to the three states of matter with the presence or absence of heat being responsible for phase transition between states.

This replicates down no matter how far you go in physical reality.


It doesn't hold up in subatomic land. They really don't understand why there is solidity or what accounts for mass or solidity. They know about forces, but not how these forces create the illusion of solidity. They are basically attraction and repulsion.

But for our purposes, for example, discussing pranayāma and other such issues -- it obvious that vāyu is a name for the air that we are breathing in.

Basic space, incidentally, is a very bad rendering of dharmadhātu, and is not supported by commentaries.


It works if you are juxtaposing space. It is the realm of phenomena, and the sphere of the single taste rigpa.

There is an attraction-attachment, like there is a wind-mind; but subtler because it is not a movement. Just as there can be a hole in space, there can be entanglement of space; the entanglement is the mind. The dharmadhatu is subtler, makes the entanglement possible, but when there is no entanglement, it is dimensionless and cannot be categorized as an existent.
Last edited by adinatha on Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Will » Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:36 am

Namdrol: prāṇa is a vāyu i.e. prāṇa vāyu (srog dzin rlung) aka "the life sustaining wind". This comes from our breath and no where else.


Not sure about the prana source being only breath. That would mean a deep samadhi state where breath stops, could not last that long - but it does - many hours, days & beyond. Since prana pervades the atmosphere around us, that prana is somehow absorbed during samadhi, without the lungs functioning.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Sherab » Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:11 am

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Earth, air fire and water in one sense refer to the three states of matter with the presence or absence of heat being responsible for phase transition between states.

This replicates down no matter how far you go in physical reality.

It doesn't hold up in subatomic land. They really don't understand why there is solidity or what accounts for mass or solidity. They know about forces, but not how these forces create the illusion of solidity. They are basically attraction and repulsion.

Actually, it is those very forces that gives rise to the illusion of mass and solidity at the macro level.

Anyway, the concepts of solidity, motility and cohesion just don't apply at the subatomic level.

So either earth, air, fire etc are meant to represent something even more fundamental than quarks or they are merely convenient concepts for explicating certain phenomena by non-modern-day-scientists.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby cloudburst » Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:14 am

Namdrol wrote:
cloudburst wrote:
That all seems rather unlikely to me. For example, the very subtle wind that becomes the
illuory body is part water vapor?
Nitrogen is the substantial cause of the rupakaya?
The very subtle wind that goes from life to life is part Argon?
I'm sure I am misunderstanding your point here, I must be.



There are five elements: earth, water, fire, air and space -- they are material, whether coarse or subtle.

When transmigration happens at the time of death, the mind/wind leaves specific orifices of the body, or channel openings. This would bot be necessary if the wind upon which the mind is mounted was not itself physical and material.


Namdrol wrote:For example, when you have flatulence, this comes from the apana vāyu, the downward-voiding wind. That flatus is apana-vāyu.


so it is your claim that you actually fart out your downward-voiding wind? Interesting proposition. What happens when you ejaculate, also caused by the downward-voiding wind?

Namdrol wrote:If you cannot accept this explanation, then you have to invent terms that do not exist in the original Tibetan and Sanskrit texts, such as the Vajramālā tantra that explain things like vāyus and so on.


It seems you are overly literal when claiming that there is no difference between inner and outer wind.


Namdrol wrote:I prefer to not to interpolate new age ideas onto Vajrayāna.


agree

Namdrol wrote:So, I accept that vāyu in the body comes from the breath. If you think about it long enough, you will understand that I am correct. You need to study tantric embryology. When you do, this will make more sense to you.
N


Thank you for your efforts.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby adinatha » Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:18 am

Sherab wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Earth, air fire and water in one sense refer to the three states of matter with the presence or absence of heat being responsible for phase transition between states.

This replicates down no matter how far you go in physical reality.

It doesn't hold up in subatomic land. They really don't understand why there is solidity or what accounts for mass or solidity. They know about forces, but not how these forces create the illusion of solidity. They are basically attraction and repulsion.

Actually, it is those very forces that gives rise to the illusion of mass and solidity at the macro level.

Anyway, the concepts of solidity, motility and cohesion just don't apply at the subatomic level.

So either earth, air, fire etc are meant to represent something even more fundamental than quarks or they are merely convenient concepts for explicating certain phenomena by non-modern-day-scientists.


That's what I said, are you a mind reader? ;)
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Sherab » Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:32 am

adinatha wrote:..are you a mind reader? ;)

I wish.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby gnegirl » Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:33 am

One never knows what one will find as discussion topic popping into a random thread on Dharma Wheel, shrinkage or farts....


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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:09 am

cloudburst wrote:
so it is your claim that you actually fart out your downward-voiding wind? Interesting proposition. What happens when you ejaculate, also caused by the downward-voiding wind?



Not my claim -- clearly explained in Kalacakra, etc. And yes, ejaculation, urination, menstruation, happen because of the apana vāyu (thur sel rlung)


It seems you are overly literal when claiming that there is no difference between inner and outer wind.


No, I am just well trained in both Vajrayāna (Lamdre, Dzogchen) and Tibetan medicine.

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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:11 am

Will wrote:
Namdrol: prāṇa is a vāyu i.e. prāṇa vāyu (srog dzin rlung) aka "the life sustaining wind". This comes from our breath and no where else.


Not sure about the prana source being only breath. That would mean a deep samadhi state where breath stops, could not last that long - but it does - many hours, days & beyond. Since prana pervades the atmosphere around us, that prana is somehow absorbed during samadhi, without the lungs functioning.


There is also respiration through the skin.

There is no prāṇa as a separate entity. This is a huge misconception. There is a prāṇa vāyu i.e. the breath we inhale.

As far not breathing during certain states of samadhi -- during these state the respiration is so slight it is not noticed. It is still happening however.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:13 am

adinatha wrote:
It doesn't hold up in subatomic land.


Of course it does.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby adinatha » Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:29 am

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
It doesn't hold up in subatomic land.


Of course it does.


How? By the way, it is not respectful to respond in a dismissive conclusory fashion.
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Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

Postby Sherab » Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:47 am

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
It doesn't hold up in subatomic land.


Of course it does.


How? ...

Waiting with bated vayu.
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