Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Moderator: Tibetan Buddhism moderators

Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:02 pm

Enochian wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:
Enochian wrote:Dzogchen is not about mind.

It it about understanding one's own real nature.
Surely understanding is a quality/process that is dependent on mind?
:namaste:


I doubt it.

Rigpa (vidya) is a different type of knowledge, than intellectual knowledge.

This is just based on my understanding. I don't claim to be a Dzogchen practitioner.


It's the knower too. Where knower and knowledge are inseparable, both are absent. Yet, nothing has changed. Get knowledge of the knower.

And then when you go "huh?" the master goes, "you got this channel..."
CAW!
User avatar
adinatha
 
Posts: 886
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:07 am

Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:12 pm

It's not very wise to make guesses. This is not something one can guess. :lol: I'll do it anyway, though.
Our real nature is not dependent on mind, that I think I can say with certainty.
Recognizing it is a different matter though. For instance, one may receive transmission and not being able to recognize rigpa, at least one won't discern it. Then one practices to gain such recognition. In the transmission process, I'm not sure if we can say mind's involved. Maybe Namdrol can clarify this better. In the practice per se, like preliminaries and that, I'm pretty sure we can definitively say we are using our mind. Nevertheless the word dependent points to a relation of cause/ effect and that may be a little problematic in a Dzogchen context, but obviously mind is involved in the overall process. For instance, imagine I receive transmission and I think (mind) "I haven't recognized rigpa" or afterwards "I have recognized rigpa". According to the experience, we practice, some to gain such recognition, others to prolong it. I'm sure mind's involved at several levels in the whole of the several practices we may end up doing, but it is not mind that causes the recognition of rigpa.
Maybe Namdrol could clarify this.
User avatar
Dechen Norbu
 
Posts: 2798
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:50 pm

Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:23 pm

the display of natural perfection is neither manifest nor latent;
the actuality of natural perfection is neither cultivated nor ignored;
and the gnosis of natural perfection is neither visible nor invisible.
...

My primary intention in composing this treatise elucidating Garab Dorje's meaning is to benefit those most keen minds that are able to gain instantaneous release into reality just as it is by listening to these words or by reading them. In order to fulfill this undertaking I shall teach the four themes of the Great Perfection definitively and conclusively.


Longchenpa "Treasury of Natural Perfection."

:bow: Longchepa Jai Longchenpa Jai Jai
CAW!
User avatar
adinatha
 
Posts: 886
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:07 am

Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:41 pm

"elucidating Garab Dorje's meaning is to benefit those most keen minds that are able to gain instantaneous release into reality just as it is by listening to these words or by reading them."
Hum, I've read them. Nothing happened! :lol:
Now what? ;)
User avatar
Dechen Norbu
 
Posts: 2798
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:50 pm

Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:53 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:Maybe Namdrol could clarify this.



It appears to me that our friend, adinatha, is a primarily a Kagyu practitioner.

I don't find his statements especially compatible with Dzogchen as I understand it and practice it.

But I also think that engaging in proofs and refutations using Dzogchen tantras is an abuse of the teachings.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10217
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:07 pm

Agree. I've asked you since you have a lot of instruction and training and know what you say, Namdrol-la.
Concerning Dzogchen, I'm especially cautious since I don't want to mislead others. It's subtle enough when properly explained and it won't be an ignorant like me who will properly clarify other's doubts or dispel any confusion. I risk placing even more obstacles ahead of me and it's hard enough already! :smile: That's why I don't like to go around guessing or giving opinions. OTOH, if I quote, I'm not sure I've properly understood what I'm quoting and I prefer not taking chances...
"When in trouble, call for Namdrol!" is my mantra around Buddhist boards! :rolling:
User avatar
Dechen Norbu
 
Posts: 2798
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:50 pm

Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:53 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:Maybe Namdrol could clarify this.



It appears to me that our friend, adinatha, is a primarily a Kagyu practitioner.

I don't find his statements especially compatible with Dzogchen as I understand it and practice it.

But I also think that engaging in proofs and refutations using Dzogchen tantras is an abuse of the teachings.


You too far. You don't know what I am primarily. Whatever is reflecting in your mind is just bias and limitation. I'm not abusing anything. I'm making an effort to elucidate the inner meaning of Ati. I'm afraid your next move will be some sort of ostracism. With all due respect and deference to your seniority, powerful intellect, and deep scholarship, I request you not to go there, however, sir. Atiyoga tantras are well published, public and stand on their own. I'm just bringing them up.

My premise is that there is a profound inner meaning of effortlessness without paths or progression that underlies all three series of Dzogchen. I contend Guru Garab Dorje's Three Vajra Verses are definitive and simultaneous. I contend the meaning of Atiyoga is the extreme limit of all possible yoga, beyond any possibility of attaining or not, and beyond any stages. It is not instantaneous or gradual. It is beyond. It is primordial guru of inseparability.

Of course my approach does take time. If I am allowed to hang around, what I say can and will sink in for some. A give and take and a dialogue goes on. For others, there is your approach, which I do not sneeze at. I respect it profoundly. I don't see too many people here going into Togal retreat either. Few ever will. Think carefully about what you say. I won't abuse you. Please, do not abuse me. Just make your case. I'll make mine, and people will do what they see fit.

If you think there is some protocol I should follow, you should address me off list. Let's be professional. Public slashing is totally unnecessary. I simply won't stand for it.
CAW!
User avatar
adinatha
 
Posts: 886
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:07 am

Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:55 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:"elucidating Garab Dorje's meaning is to benefit those most keen minds that are able to gain instantaneous release into reality just as it is by listening to these words or by reading them."
Hum, I've read them. Nothing happened! :lol:
Now what? ;)


What do you mean "now what?" How was your lunch?
CAW!
User avatar
adinatha
 
Posts: 886
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:07 am

Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Enochian » Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:57 pm

adinatha wrote:I'm not abusing anything.....Atiyoga tantras are well published, public and stand on their own. I'm just bringing them up.



I am pretty sure he was talking about it will be an abuse of teachings if HE, Namdrol, was to start refuting your positions using the tantras.

I don't think he cares what you do.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
Enochian
 
Posts: 364
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:19 pm

Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:27 pm

adinatha wrote:
Atiyoga tantras are well published, public and stand on their own. I'm just bringing them up.


They are published in Tibetan, not in English.

There is a paltry few that are available in translation.


My premise is that there is a profound inner meaning of effortlessness without paths or progression that underlies all three series of Dzogchen.


Slogans are easy.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10217
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:35 pm

adinatha wrote:You don't know what I am primarily.


I have only your verbal opinions to go on.

You have bandied about a bunch of slogans, combined them with frequent references to Gampopa, etc.

As I said, based on what you have shared, your view seems very Kagyu influenced.

This is not a bad thing, but Kagyu is a sngags gsar ma school, and they tend to subordinate Dzogchen as just another "means".

Based on what you have said, I don't think we share a similar understanding of Dzogchen.

Oh certainly, I can agree with superficial slogans, but that is not the essence of the teachings.

Dzogchen language is very simple -- for this reason it is difficult to understand correctly for it is very profound.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10217
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:38 pm

Namdrol wrote:They are published in Tibetan, not in English.

There is a paltry few that are available in translation.


The main point is well represented in English.

My premise is that there is a profound inner meaning of effortlessness without paths or progression that underlies all three series of Dzogchen.


Slogans are easy.


Don't just cut and paste. Look at the whole. I'm saying a dialogue and a give and take is required. Being dismissive and nonchalant is easy. Building a concrete structure is easy. Making an outline is easy. Having a philosophy is easy. Being the sole holder of the magic de-coder ring is easy. Awareness is easy. Nothing is easy. What are we really talking about here? Not opinion.
CAW!
User avatar
adinatha
 
Posts: 886
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:07 am

Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:40 pm

adinatha wrote:
The main point is well represented in English.


We will have to disagree.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10217
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Mr. G » Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:41 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:"elucidating Garab Dorje's meaning is to benefit those most keen minds that are able to gain instantaneous release into reality just as it is by listening to these words or by reading them."
Hum, I've read them. Nothing happened! :lol:
Now what? ;)


I think this is the problem that can occur on forums. Language can get used so fast and loose when talking about Dzogchen that a lot can be misunderstood. What's worse is that you can take some posts completely out of context and interchange some of the words so it's indistinguishable from Neo-Advaita....which ends up being an "Everything is perfect as it is" muddling. It's really quite unhelpful. I've received Dzogchen teachings and they are not my main practices, but if the meaning behind Dzogchen is as profound and hard to understand as they say, we should use more precise verbiage if possible. I know I find it helpful when people do.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
User avatar
Mr. G
 
Posts: 4098
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:36 am
Location: Spaceship Earth

Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:42 pm

Namdrol wrote:I have only your verbal opinions to go on.

You have bandied about a bunch of slogans, combined them with frequent references to Gampopa, etc.

As I said, based on what you have shared, your view seems very Kagyu influenced.

This is not a bad thing, but Kagyu is a sngags gsar ma school, and they tend to subordinate Dzogchen as just another "means".


That's the first I've heard of it. Maybe there's something to that.

Based on what you have said, I don't think we share a similar understanding of Dzogchen.


So what.

Oh certainly, I can agree with superficial slogans, but that is not the essence of the teachings.

Dzogchen language is very simple -- for this reason it is difficult to understand correctly for it is very profound.

N


This shouldn't take long then, I'm waiting...
CAW!
User avatar
adinatha
 
Posts: 886
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:07 am

Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:47 pm

adinatha wrote:
This shouldn't take long then, I'm waiting...


My point is that Dzogchen language is very misleading unless grounded in personal experience.

One either has that personal experience or one does not. It is not the kind of thing one can brag about on an internet forum and expect it to be convincing to others. Mostly, they will just think you are full of sh!t.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10217
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:49 pm

mr. gordo wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:"elucidating Garab Dorje's meaning is to benefit those most keen minds that are able to gain instantaneous release into reality just as it is by listening to these words or by reading them."
Hum, I've read them. Nothing happened! :lol:
Now what? ;)


I think this is the problem that can occur on forums. Language can get used so fast and loose when talking about Dzogchen that a lot can be misunderstood. What's worse is that you can take some posts completely out of context and interchange some of the words so it's indistinguishable from Neo-Advaita....which ends up being an "Everything is perfect as it is" muddling. It's really quite unhelpful. I've received Dzogchen teachings and they are not my main practices, but if the meaning behind Dzogchen is as profound and hard to understand as they say, we should use more precise verbiage if possible. I know I find it helpful when people do.


Let me be really specific now. Longchenpa says it is possible to be liberated just from reading his words. What does that imply about the mind/nature of mind issue?
CAW!
User avatar
adinatha
 
Posts: 886
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:07 am

Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:57 pm

adinatha wrote:
Let me be really specific now. Longchenpa says it is possible to be liberated just from reading his words.



This does not mean that one will manifest buddhahood immediately.

There are many texts in Dzogchen which stated "merely by reading these words one will be liberated". There is also "merely by hearing this one will be liberated", "merely by tasting this one will be liberated", "merely by seeing this one will be liberated", "merely by smelling this one will be liberated", "merely by touching this one will be liberated", etc.

This is all part of the six liberations traditions in Dzogchen. It means you have created a good cause for liberation in your continuum.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10217
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby adinatha » Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:59 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
This shouldn't take long then, I'm waiting...


My point is that Dzogchen language is very misleading unless grounded in personal experience.

One either has that personal experience or one does not. It is not the kind of thing one can brag about on an internet forum and expect it to be convincing to others. Mostly, they will just think you are full of sh!t.

N


Look at what you are implying with everything you say. You know Tibetan. You have texts others don't. You've studied it for 20 years. You practiced it for 20 years. You have personal experience that's so profound you can't even talk about it. You dole out pithy little proclamations about what is the case without backing it up and if someone doesn't agree with you, you go on the offensive ad hominem. Be a professional, man. There is Atiyoga language synonymous with experience. Maybe this challenges orthodox Dzogchen teachings. Orthodox and Dzogchen should be an oxymoron. That's never the case with people though.
CAW!
User avatar
adinatha
 
Posts: 886
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:07 am

Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience

Postby Mr. G » Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:03 pm

adinatha wrote:Let me be really specific now. Longchenpa says it is possible to be liberated just from reading his words. What does that imply about the mind/nature of mind issue?


I don't know actually. I'm guessing it means that I don't understand "by reading his words" because my aggregates are afflicted and I need to "scrub" out the afflictions. I'm sure Dzogchen says this is unnecessary, but this is why I practice tantra...I can recognize a cause and effect relationship and it makes sense for me. I personally don't mind stating that Dzogchen is not in my capacity at this time....I think those that get it are quite fortunate, and those that can explain Dzogchen lucidly are quite rare.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
User avatar
Mr. G
 
Posts: 4098
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:36 am
Location: Spaceship Earth

PreviousNext

Return to Dzogchen

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: jigdral, namoh, Phuntsog Tashi and 13 guests

>