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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:06 am 
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From viewtopic.php?f=48&t=3943&start=0
adinatha wrote:
From the ground of consciousness everything appears spontaneously like an explosion when hydrogen and oxygen touch, immediately releasing fire and water. This happens regardless of attachment. It is the nature of mind. At its base it is void. ….. And because sentient beings are always popping up in this timeless primordial soup, there are always buddhas there too, present in their own minds. The buddhas in their minds are not reborn, the I in them is reborn. Every moment grasping repeats is rebirth. Every moment grasping doesn't is nirvana.

If "sentient beings are always popping up in this timeless primordial soup", then samsara is indeed endless, since at any one time, there will always be new sentient beings arising. It also means that it is not possible to know the number of sentient beings.

Any sutras/tantras supporting the above idea?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:17 am 
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Not new sentient beings. Sentient beings are not coming or going. Samsara is beyond elaboration, boundless, not growing or shrinking. Gampopa. The Flower Ornament Sutra. Heart Sutra. When a sentient being becomes enlightened, there wasn't a sentient being to begin with, like the rope mistaken for a snake. The snake never appeared or disappeared. Longchenpa has language to this effect too. Samsara does not appear, so it cannot go out. The appearance of samsara is maya.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:29 am 
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Well said, adinatha.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:43 am 
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adinatha wrote:
Not new sentient beings. Sentient beings are not coming or going. Samsara is beyond elaboration, boundless, not growing or shrinking. Gampopa. The Flower Ornament Sutra. Heart Sutra. When a sentient being becomes enlightened, there wasn't a sentient being to begin with, like the rope mistaken for a snake. The snake never appeared or disappeared. Longchenpa has language to this effect too. Samsara does not appear, so it cannot go out. The appearance of samsara is maya.

Okay, let me change new sentient beings to new illusory sentient beings. With new illusory sentient beings popping up, illusory samsara never ends.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:28 am 
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Sherab wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Not new sentient beings. Sentient beings are not coming or going. Samsara is beyond elaboration, boundless, not growing or shrinking. Gampopa. The Flower Ornament Sutra. Heart Sutra. When a sentient being becomes enlightened, there wasn't a sentient being to begin with, like the rope mistaken for a snake. The snake never appeared or disappeared. Longchenpa has language to this effect too. Samsara does not appear, so it cannot go out. The appearance of samsara is maya.

Okay, let me change new sentient beings to new illusory sentient beings. With new illusory sentient beings popping up, illusory samsara never ends.
Well that's the thing with infininty, it's infinite!

Where are you going with this line of questioning? (I bet I can guess)
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:56 am 
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Early buddhist school Lokottaravada believed this. I do not know about any other Mahayanist school, their general way of thinking is always to achieve Buddhahood in order to "empty" samsara.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:03 am 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
Where are you going with this line of questioning? (I bet I can guess)
:namaste:

I have no idea. Let's see where the discussion leads to.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:35 am 
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If sentient beings had a beginning, you would have to have a defiled dharma arise from an undefiled dharma.

It doesn't work like that in conventional reality.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:25 pm 
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Sherab wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Not new sentient beings. Sentient beings are not coming or going. Samsara is beyond elaboration, boundless, not growing or shrinking. Gampopa. The Flower Ornament Sutra. Heart Sutra. When a sentient being becomes enlightened, there wasn't a sentient being to begin with, like the rope mistaken for a snake. The snake never appeared or disappeared. Longchenpa has language to this effect too. Samsara does not appear, so it cannot go out. The appearance of samsara is maya.

Okay, let me change new sentient beings to new illusory sentient beings. With new illusory sentient beings popping up, illusory samsara never ends.


Even if you add the word illusory, it doesn't change the situation. Think of it like this. When you mistake your shadow for a ghost, a new ghost did not pop up. When you realize it was just your shadow, the ghost did not go anywhere. And your shadow is just your shadow. It has no true existence either. But all this appears just the same. This is how samsara and nirvana proceed forever. In this analogy your true body would be your buddha-nature, the dharmakaya.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:17 pm 
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Sherab wrote:
Okay, let me change new sentient beings to new illusory sentient beings. With new illusory sentient beings popping up, illusory samsara never ends.

What is the cause of these supposed new sentient beings (illusory or not)? All phenomena arise because of causes and conditions.

Sentient beings have existed since beginningless time. They are not new.

Om mani padme hum
Keith


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:01 am 
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KeithBC wrote:
Sentient beings have existed since beginningless time. They are not new.


If there has not been a beginning to a phenomenon, it cannot be considered as being the phenomenon that we are defining as that very thing, because it has not begun to be that very phenomenon which we are defining.

Nor could it be considered as exisiting, because its existence would require the very phenomenon that we are defining.

Logically it could not matter if it is a sentient being or, say, cosmic dust; they are both appearances, as conceived. It is the appearance of sentient beings, considered as existing objectively, i.e., other than apparantly, that seems to be the cause of this apparant mystery.

Neither "beginningless time", nor "sentient beings" need any justification, for their appearance, because appearances are all they are. They are concepts, dharmas, integral in their perceiving.

"Whatever we might consider emptiness to be, is identical to whatever conceptual category [appearance] we might dream up."

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:37 am 
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Huseng wrote:
If sentient beings had a beginning, you would have to have a defiled dharma arise from an undefiled dharma.

It doesn't work like that in conventional reality.

In conventional reality, it doesn't work like that, but in the ultimate reality, there is neither defiled nor undefiled dharma. So it should be possible for illusory defiled dharma to "arise" from the so-called ultimate reality, no?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:41 am 
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adinatha wrote:
Sherab wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Not new sentient beings. Sentient beings are not coming or going. Samsara is beyond elaboration, boundless, not growing or shrinking. Gampopa. The Flower Ornament Sutra. Heart Sutra. When a sentient being becomes enlightened, there wasn't a sentient being to begin with, like the rope mistaken for a snake. The snake never appeared or disappeared. Longchenpa has language to this effect too. Samsara does not appear, so it cannot go out. The appearance of samsara is maya.

Okay, let me change new sentient beings to new illusory sentient beings. With new illusory sentient beings popping up, illusory samsara never ends.


Even if you add the word illusory, it doesn't change the situation. Think of it like this. When you mistake your shadow for a ghost, a new ghost did not pop up. When you realize it was just your shadow, the ghost did not go anywhere. And your shadow is just your shadow. It has no true existence either. But all this appears just the same. This is how samsara and nirvana proceed forever. In this analogy your true body would be your buddha-nature, the dharmakaya.

A sentient being is one that mistake his shadow for a ghost. So since a sentient being is a discrete unit, the number of sentient beings must be finite for the emptying of samsara, since emptying of samsara = recognising shadow as shadow and not ghost?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:51 am 
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Sherab wrote:
A sentient being is one that mistake his shadow for a ghost. So since a sentient being is a discrete unit, the number of sentient beings must be finite for the emptying of samsara, since emptying of samsara = recognising shadow as shadow and not ghost?


You don't understand the analogy. There's is no sentient being in the analogy. The person in the analogy represents the dharmakaya. The dharmakaya is not a unit. Look at it like this. A "sentient being" is a collection of atoms. There's no unit of a sentient being there. So what is liberated? Nothing. What samsara where? "Show me your discrimination." (Lankavatara Sutra)

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:42 am 
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adinatha wrote:
You don't understand the analogy. There's is no sentient being in the analogy. The person in the analogy represents the dharmakaya. The dharmakaya is not a unit. Look at it like this. A "sentient being" is a collection of atoms. There's no unit of a sentient being there. So what is liberated? Nothing. What samsara where? "Show me your discrimination." (Lankavatara Sutra)

Sure, there are no sentient beings in reality. But, there are the illusions of sentient beings, right? So in speaking of emptying samsara, we are speaking of emptying the illusions of sentient beings by causing the illusory sentient beings to realise that they are merely illusions, no?

So, when you stated "And because sentient beings are always popping up in this timeless primordial soup", I was asking whether this was how illusory sentient beings arise.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:59 am 
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"Sentient beings" are composite, alike clouds... one cloud, one hundred clouds.
Why count one seemingly tangible form as one?
Might as well count the water drops in each cloud,
so following that logic, even I am ten thousand means to form a sentient being.
Alike clouds composite dependently originated sentience is liberated into its own condition.
But it's not a liberation of one or two beings, one or two conditions.
Names and numbers are of the conditioned mind, how can that which comes after know about what precedes it?
How can it knows what comes after? To speak of arising and dissolving in such sense, totally misses the point.
For all such dwellings are just transient imaginations within the mind itself.
Hence, "mastering the dharma" is not done by dwelling on name and form, adding and subtracting.
As long as sentient beings are an object of mind, one does not see that they are searching for mind with mind itself.
So the question is not really about "new sentient beings arising" just take a look, yet....

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:08 am 
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Sherab wrote:
Sure, there are no sentient beings in reality. But, there are the illusions of sentient beings, right? So in speaking of emptying samsara, we are speaking of emptying the illusions of sentient beings by causing the illusory sentient beings to realise that they are merely illusions, no?

So, when you stated "And because sentient beings are always popping up in this timeless primordial soup", I was asking whether this was how illusory sentient beings arise.


Look at the Heart Sutra. You can't empty mirage lake. It does not arise. Think of the spinning firebrand. It looks like a wheel but no wheel arises. It's an optical illusion. Even a material object, due to change, never gains object status in fact. Only a mistaken concept "appears" to arise. Even that concept has no real existence. If you try to look at your concept, you won't find it. As soon as you go to look, there's nothing there. Even that nothingness isn't there, because even the looking isn't there. It's a now you see it, now you don't situation no matter how you try to grasp it. It's ungraspable, all of it. It's like trying to grab space. Exactly this is ungrabbable space is emptying all of samsara, because that is the buddha-nature. The grasping is just a failed exertion and failed attempt; it is loss; mistakes repeated, a nonstarter from the beginning; this is samsara's nature.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:57 am 
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adinatha wrote:
Sherab wrote:
Sure, there are no sentient beings in reality. But, there are the illusions of sentient beings, right? So in speaking of emptying samsara, we are speaking of emptying the illusions of sentient beings by causing the illusory sentient beings to realise that they are merely illusions, no?

So, when you stated "And because sentient beings are always popping up in this timeless primordial soup", I was asking whether this was how illusory sentient beings arise.


Look at the Heart Sutra. You can't empty mirage lake. It does not arise. Think of the spinning firebrand. It looks like a wheel but no wheel arises. It's an optical illusion. Even a material object, due to change, never gains object status in fact. Only a mistaken concept "appears" to arise. Even that concept has no real existence. If you try to look at your concept, you won't find it. As soon as you go to look, there's nothing there. Even that nothingness isn't there, because even the looking isn't there. It's a now you see it, now you don't situation no matter how you try to grasp it. It's ungraspable, all of it. It's like trying to grab space. Exactly this is ungrabbable space is emptying all of samsara, because that is the buddha-nature. The grasping is just a failed exertion and failed attempt; it is loss; mistakes repeated, a nonstarter from the beginning; this is samsara's nature.

You are responding from the ultimate side to my question which was framed from the conventional or illusory side. So neither the twain shall meet.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:14 am 
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The furthest limit of conventional reasoning is the famed non-affirming negation. It's a cliff-hanger. From a conventional standpoint, samsara is beyond comprehension. It is beginningless and endless. The number of sentient beings is inconceivable. When I said, popping up, what I was driving at was popping no more or less than before. If you consider a beginninglessness, there is never a new sentient being popping up. It is just a boundless recycling. If you consider endlessness, a reduction of samsara simply has no meaning whatsoever. Take a look at the Avatamsaka Sutra.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:47 am 
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Sherab wrote:
In conventional reality, it doesn't work like that, but in the ultimate reality, there is neither defiled nor undefiled dharma. So it should be possible for illusory defiled dharma to "arise" from the so-called ultimate reality, no?


There are no discernible phenomena in ultimate reality, so how could "something arise" from it?

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