Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

[gnegirl]

Yeah I know what the traditional explaination is. It makes no sense at all and just seems to be a reflection of a fear of sex.

Retracting the sex organs into the body also seems gruesome to modern people. However the intention behind the image seems clear - the nirnanakaya has definitely overcome desire.

Kirt

It's cause and effect, simple as that. When one does extended retreats, and doesn't lay down, it will happen. Something like what happens when you jump into freezing water. The pranas enter the central channel and that inward trajectory causes the penis to retract.

unless of course, you don't happen to have one

[tamdrin]

I thought it was just that the Buddha's penis isn't circumsized.. nothing more than that.

[adinatha]

unless of course, you don't happen to have one

Oh you didn't know? A female will grow one.

Just kidding.

[gregkavarnos]

It's cause and effect, simple as that. When one does extended retreats, and doesn't lay down, it will happen. Something like what happens when you jump into freezing water. The pranas enter the central channel and that inward trajectory causes the penis to retract.

So what you are saying is that Buddhahood is like a spiritual cold shower?

[gnegirl]

Spiritual shrinkage....

Someone pass the diet coke, this thread is getting interesting.

[adinatha]

It's cause and effect, simple as that. When one does extended retreats, and doesn't lay down, it will happen. Something like what happens when you jump into freezing water. The pranas enter the central channel and that inward trajectory causes the penis to retract.

So what you are saying is that Buddhahood is like a spiritual cold shower?

[Gyalpo]

Something that bothers me.

Did Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa have physical bodies after Buddhahood?

If so that contradicts Vajrayana itself. After Buddhahood is obtained, one should no longer have a physical body.

So it seems to me, that according to your philosophy even Buddha Shakyamuni didnt achieve complete buddhahood, cos he has a physical body, he suffered from illness and at the end he even died!

Don't put words in my mouth.

I know that Shakyamuni was a Supreme Nirmankaya demonstrating an arhat's awakening.

I didnt! Sorry, you said that after buddhahood there is no physical body. But, peace, I dont want to argue.

[conebeckham]

Oh, jeez, I'm quoting myself....well...

Well, what about the completion stage of Yangdak?

What about it?

Well, the Heruka Gyalpo Tantra that it's based on shares characteristics with these so-called "sarma innovations," does it not? The Upper Door and Lower Door practices, Four Joys, Melting, etc......

I don't know much about this Tantra, though Kongtrul uses it as the basic framework to outline completion stage in the Sheja KunKhyab. I assume the Heruka Gyalpo Tantra is included in the Nyingma GyuBum, and is part of the Kama Transmission....anyone????

[Malcolm]

I thought it was just that the Buddha's penis isn't circumsized.. nothing more than that.

Nobody's penis was circumsized in ancient India.

[Will]

I thought it was just that the Buddha's penis isn't circumsized.. nothing more than that.

Nobody's penis was circumsized in ancient India.

Some recent translation (maybe I will recall) gave a fancy word "Cryptorchidism". That word meant having only one testicle (or none) descended into the scrotum, which is what Buddha had.

[tamdrin]

1)Yeah, I sort of realized that after I posted.


2)I doubt the Buddhas stuff had ascended into his body at least while he was enjoying the high life with a bunch of pretty ladies in the palace...

[Malcolm]

I assume the Heruka Gyalpo Tantra is included in the Nyingma GyuBum, and is part of the Kama Transmission....anyone????

The root tantra is a terma, there are many terma tantras in the Nyingma Gyudbum.

[Pema Rigdzin]

Interesting, thanks.

Due to this lack of the use of nadis, cakras, etc., can we still classify practices that don't possess these characteristics as tantra? Is it because they require initiation allow us to still classify practices lacking completion stage as tantra?

They still possess completion stage, just not completion stage with characteristics. In other words, their completion stage is Dzogchen.

[Mr. G]

Interesting, thanks.

Due to this lack of the use of nadis, cakras, etc., can we still classify practices that don't possess these characteristics as tantra? Is it because they require initiation allow us to still classify practices lacking completion stage as tantra?

They still possess completion stage, just not completion stage with characteristics.

Hi Pema, when you say "competion stage with characteristics", do you mean practice like tummo, kumbhaka, etc.?

In other words, their completion stage is Dzogchen.

I don't understand.

[conebeckham]

I assume the Heruka Gyalpo Tantra is included in the Nyingma GyuBum, and is part of the Kama Transmission....anyone????

The root tantra is a terma, there are many terma tantras in the Nyingma Gyudbum.

Ok! Interesting.
So.....I'm assuming that within the Kama there is some Tantra or material relating to Vishuddha/Yangdak, as one of the Kagye deities. Does any of that material relate to so-called "Completion Stage with Characteristics?"

Namdrol, in the Sakyas the Khon family are known as holders of the Yangdak as well as the Kilaya. I understand the Khon Kilaya is Kama.....I assume the transmission of Yangdak comes from Kama as well? I know it's not really practiced, as it's similar to Hevajra from what I've heard.....but this would also lead me to believe that Yangdak does, indeed, contain a Completion Stage with some of the features of Hevajra, Samvara, Mahamaya, Etc.....

??

[tamdrin]

based on the discussions happening here I'm starting to feel Sarma Tantras have things to offer that Nyingma tantras do not...

[Malcolm]

based on the discussions happening here I'm starting to feel Sarma Tantras have things to offer that Nyingma tantras do not...

Well, there was a reason that Tibetan went back to India to gather more teachings. The Vima Snyin thig was probably the last stage in the development of Dzogchen that was not influenced by gsar ma developments, if one is going according to present text critical understanding. But keep in mind, that could easily change with the discovery of some cache of texts, etc. Western textual scholarship is good a useful, but like science, it has stark limitations.

gsar ma has many interesting things, definitely.

[Malcolm]

I assume the Heruka Gyalpo Tantra is included in the Nyingma GyuBum, and is part of the Kama Transmission....anyone????

The root tantra is a terma, there are many terma tantras in the Nyingma Gyudbum.

Ok! Interesting.
So.....I'm assuming that within the Kama there is some Tantra or material relating to Vishuddha/Yangdak, as one of the Kagye deities. Does any of that material relate to so-called "Completion Stage with Characteristics?"

Namdrol, in the Sakyas the Khon family are known as holders of the Yangdak as well as the Kilaya. I understand the Khon Kilaya is Kama.....I assume the transmission of Yangdak comes from Kama as well? I know it's not really practiced, as it's similar to Hevajra from what I've heard.....but this would also lead me to believe that Yangdak does, indeed, contain a Completion Stage with some of the features of Hevajra, Samvara, Mahamaya, Etc.....

??

yes, Kilaya and Yangdag are both Kama. Neither really has a completion stage to speak of. If there was one, it was buried.

N

[adinatha]

based on the discussions happening here I'm starting to feel Sarma Tantras have things to offer that Nyingma tantras do not...

Before you go and jump ship, keep in mind that in some Sarma circles, sahaja-mahamudra is considered the highest method. It is roughly equivalent to tregcho. It is taught in a Dzogchen-like way where you are introduced to nature of mind in a Ganga Mahamudra Upadesha transmission. Then, you increase your clarity with guru yoga, Vajrasattva and mandala practice (sometimes prostrations are included in mandala). The main practice is naturalness and luminosity. Given the current state of affairs with Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, it is interesting how one lama, at least, (who has no connection to Norbu Rinpoche and doesn't know what he teaches) follows a similar line of teaching style. For me this is very instructive and a fortune of interdependence and blessings. So a sahaja-mahamudra guru basically laughs at deity yoga and tummo as something low level and a waste of time, and the visualization methods that are applied are Anuyoga style. The wonderful good fortune of the Golden Rosary lineage is the force of blessings. In terms of the path of blessings, sarma has a more high voltage transmission system, because their entire focus is blessings as path. To my mind even as wonderful as these powerful blessings are, the power of rigpa-luminosity is more; it's just not always as cozy and fuzzy, which is why Dzogchen's usually a wrathful mandala. It's not like Dzogchen is old hat and sarma is high tech. There's no higher view than Ati.

[tamdrin]

based on the discussions happening here I'm starting to feel Sarma Tantras have things to offer that Nyingma tantras do not...

Before you go and jump ship, keep in mind that in some Sarma circles, sahaja-mahamudra is considered the highest method. It is roughly equivalent to tregcho. It is taught in a Dzogchen-like way where you are introduced to nature of mind in a Ganga Mahamudra Upadesha transmission. Then, you increase your clarity with guru yoga, Vajrasattva and mandala practice (sometimes prostrations are included in mandala). The main practice is naturalness and luminosity. Given the current state of affairs with Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, it is interesting how one lama, at least, (who has no connection to Norbu Rinpoche and doesn't know what he teaches) follows a similar line of teaching style. For me this is very instructive and a fortune of interdependence and blessings. So a sahaja-mahamudra guru basically laughs at deity yoga and tummo as something low level and a waste of time, and the visualization methods that are applied are Anuyoga style. The wonderful good fortune of the Golden Rosary lineage is the force of blessings. In terms of the path of blessings, sarma has a more high voltage transmission system, because their entire focus is blessings as path. To my mind even as wonderful as these powerful blessings are, the power of rigpa-luminosity is more; it's just not always as cozy and fuzzy, which is why Dzogchen's usually a wrathful mandala. It's not like Dzogchen is old hat and sarma is high tech. There's no higher view than Ati.

t caug

You assume wrongly my friend, my Lineage is actually Drikung Kagyu but I have been influenced by a lot of dzogchen I guess... I understand Mahamudra to be the wisdom of my dharmakaya itself.. actually when this is introduced to you, in Kagyu, it is the wisdom of the path of seeing itself! so I don't think of it in terms of "gradual" or "instanteneous".. I think its silly to get caught up in whats the highest or "best" method as seems to happen a lot here in internet forums..Anyway its funny even within the lineage there seem to be two groups of people.. some that are more influenced by the Yangzab etc but traditionally one could do all the 5 fold Mahamudra stuff then do the Yangzab too .. anyway it seems that more nyingma oriented practicionres tend to go crazy and this was confirmed by khyentse rinpoche who said that many (more than half or 90% of Thogal practicioners in Tibet go crazy..) and in the lineage there is some feeling (i think although it may be unspoken) that the dzogchen people are a more outlandish crazy bunch.. (but this is an observation that is true of Vajrayana followers in general as compared to other Buddhists because our karma ripens quickly on this path..