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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:21 am 
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Namdrol wrote:
Actually, we have eleventh century Nyingma masters complaining about all this new-fangled stuff with cakras, and nadis and so on that was a Hindu corruption of Buddhism. They reacted quite negatively to Hevajra, Kalacakra, Cakrasamvara and so on at first.


Does the Khon Vajrakila not have completion stage with cakras, nadis..etc.?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:27 pm 
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mr. gordo wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Actually, we have eleventh century Nyingma masters complaining about all this new-fangled stuff with cakras, and nadis and so on that was a Hindu corruption of Buddhism. They reacted quite negatively to Hevajra, Kalacakra, Cakrasamvara and so on at first.


Does the Khon Vajrakila not have completion stage with cakras, nadis..etc.?


No, there is no real completion stage with characteristics for the Khon Kilaya, AFAIK, apart from Dzogchen. Even if there were one, it would be hard to tell when it entered the practice. Of course there are kilaya tantras that have these things, but from a text critical point of view, their date of composition is difficult to ascertain.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:41 pm 
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Interesting, thanks.

Due to this lack of the use of nadis, cakras, etc., can we still classify practices that don't possess these characteristics as tantra? Is it because they require initiation allow us to still classify practices lacking completion stage as tantra?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:52 pm 
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conebeckham wrote:

Well, what about the completion stage of Yangdak?


What about it?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:58 pm 
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mr. gordo wrote:
Interesting, thanks.

Due to this lack of the use of nadis, cakras, etc., can we still classify practices that don't possess these characteristics as tantra? Is it because they require initiation allow us to still classify practices lacking completion stage as tantra?



Sure.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:37 pm 
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So which masters exactly manifested full and complete buddhahood not at death but in life? As far as I can tell it was Tilopa, Naropa and Milarepa. I'm not sure about Marpa. I'm not sure about Gampopa or Phagmo Drupa, but Drikung people say Jigten Sumgon manifested the topknot, the swirly eyebrow, the penis in the sheath and was a fully realized buddha after he overcame leprosy with his bodhichitta meditation. What they don't say is that they have methods for doing the same thing. Anyone who manifests buddhahood in life, according to them, is because of past life karma, being a bodhisattva in a previous life, and all that.

On the Dzogchen side, Garab Dorje and Padmasambhava were born nirmanakayas. The rest manifested buddhahood at death. If anyone can correct me here that would be delightful.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:19 pm 
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adinatha wrote:
So which masters exactly manifested full and complete buddhahood not at death but in life? As far as I can tell it was Tilopa, Naropa and Milarepa. I'm not sure about Marpa. I'm not sure about Gampopa or Phagmo Drupa, but Drikung people say Jigten Sumgon manifested the topknot, the swirly eyebrow, the penis in the sheath and was a fully realized buddha after he overcame leprosy with his bodhichitta meditation. What they don't say is that they have methods for doing the same thing. Anyone who manifests buddhahood in life, according to them, is because of past life karma, being a bodhisattva in a previous life, and all that.

On the Dzogchen side, Garab Dorje and Padmasambhava were born nirmanakayas. The rest manifested buddhahood at death. If anyone can correct me here that would be delightful.



Countless Dzogchen masters realized full awakening in this body.

Rongzom states that the atiyoga path is so swift, that these relative signs manifested by Sapan, etc., don't appear on the body, but when the shell of the body breaks at death, these fully developed qualities are evident at that time.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:21 pm 
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adinatha wrote:
So which masters exactly manifested full and complete buddhahood not at death but in life? As far as I can tell it was Tilopa, Naropa and Milarepa.


Chestun Senge Wangchug, Khyentse Wangpo, Longchenpa, many others.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:02 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
So which masters exactly manifested full and complete buddhahood not at death but in life? As far as I can tell it was Tilopa, Naropa and Milarepa.


Chestun Senge Wangchug, Khyentse Wangpo, Longchenpa, many others.


I thought these were rainbow bodies not of great transference, but manifesting at the time of death. In the case of Longchenpa, full manifest buddhahood at time of death with the earthquakes, "hurr" sound and other signs. I'm referring to well in advance of death with years and years of dharma dispensation to go.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:05 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
Rongzom states that the atiyoga path is so swift, that these relative signs manifested by Sapan, etc., don't appear on the body, but when the shell of the body breaks at death, these fully developed qualities are evident at that time.


I can accept this. This makes a lot of sense.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:11 pm 
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Enochian wrote:
Something that bothers me.

Did Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa have physical bodies after Buddhahood?

If so that contradicts Vajrayana itself. After Buddhahood is obtained, one should no longer have a physical body.


So it seems to me, that according to your philosophy even Buddha Shakyamuni didnt achieve complete buddhahood, cos he has a physical body, he suffered from illness and at the end he even died!


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:17 pm 
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adinatha wrote:
S. . . Jigten Sumgon manifested the topknot, the swirly eyebrow, the penis in the sheath and was a fully realized buddha after he overcame leprosy with his bodhichitta meditation. What they don't say is that they have methods for doing the same thing. . ."


Could you please explain this further?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:23 pm 
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adinatha wrote:
the penis in the sheath ...


The penis in the sheath thing has always bothered me. It sounds more like a disease if taken literally. I have a problem with it in a guru yoga text for example. Perhaps it is meant more methaphoically in the sense that nirmanakayas have truly overcome desire so the penis is sheathed in that sense.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:28 pm 
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dakini_boi wrote:
adinatha wrote:
S. . . Jigten Sumgon manifested the topknot, the swirly eyebrow, the penis in the sheath and was a fully realized buddha after he overcame leprosy with his bodhichitta meditation. What they don't say is that they have methods for doing the same thing. . ."


Could you please explain this further?


That he manifested the 32 major and minor marks of nirmanakaya Buddha.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:32 pm 
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kirtu wrote:
adinatha wrote:
the penis in the sheath ...


The penis in the sheath thing has always bothered me. It sounds more like a disease if taken literally. I have a problem with it in a guru yoga text for example. Perhaps it is meant more methaphoically in the sense that nirmanakayas have truly overcome desire so the penis is sheathed in that sense.

Kirt


No they mean a nirmanakaya's penis goes into a sheath like a horse. It means it retracts into the body cavity.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:39 pm 
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adinatha wrote:
kirtu wrote:
adinatha wrote:
the penis in the sheath ...


The penis in the sheath thing has always bothered me. It sounds more like a disease if taken literally. I have a problem with it in a guru yoga text for example. Perhaps it is meant more methaphoically in the sense that nirmanakayas have truly overcome desire so the penis is sheathed in that sense.

Kirt


No they mean a nirmanakaya's penis goes into a sheath like a horse. It means it retracts into the body cavity.


Yeah I know what the traditional explaination is. It makes no sense at all and just seems to be a reflection of a fear of sex.

Retracting the sex organs into the body also seems gruesome to modern people. However the intention behind the image seems clear - the nirnanakaya has definitely overcome desire.

Kirt

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:48 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
conebeckham wrote:

Well, what about the completion stage of Yangdak?


What about it?


Well, the Heruka Gyalpo Tantra that it's based on shares characteristics with these so-called "sarma innovations," does it not? The Upper Door and Lower Door practices, Four Joys, Melting, etc......

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:50 pm 
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Gyalpo wrote:
Enochian wrote:
Something that bothers me.

Did Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa have physical bodies after Buddhahood?

If so that contradicts Vajrayana itself. After Buddhahood is obtained, one should no longer have a physical body.


So it seems to me, that according to your philosophy even Buddha Shakyamuni didnt achieve complete buddhahood, cos he has a physical body, he suffered from illness and at the end he even died!



Don't put words in my mouth.

I know that Shakyamuni was a Supreme Nirmankaya demonstrating an arhat's awakening.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:58 pm 
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Enochian wrote:
Gyalpo wrote:
Enochian wrote:
Something that bothers me.

Did Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa have physical bodies after Buddhahood?

If so that contradicts Vajrayana itself. After Buddhahood is obtained, one should no longer have a physical body.


So it seems to me, that according to your philosophy even Buddha Shakyamuni didnt achieve complete buddhahood, cos he has a physical body, he suffered from illness and at the end he even died!



Don't put words in my mouth.

I know that Shakyamuni was a Supreme Nirmankaya demonstrating an arhat's awakening.


He wasn't. He was simply extending the argument that was presented.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:00 pm 
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kirtu wrote:
Yeah I know what the traditional explaination is. It makes no sense at all and just seems to be a reflection of a fear of sex.

Retracting the sex organs into the body also seems gruesome to modern people. However the intention behind the image seems clear - the nirnanakaya has definitely overcome desire.

Kirt


It's cause and effect, simple as that. When one does extended retreats, and doesn't lay down, it will happen. Something like what happens when you jump into freezing water. The pranas enter the central channel and that inward trajectory causes the penis to retract.

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