Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

[Enochian]

No, that is not so -- there was a lot of gsar ma material in Tibet when Mila was a youth. He just happened to have had Nyingma masters.

Sarma material, of course I agree with that.

But is there anything unique about Sarma material?

Bottomline of Sarma is tummo and karmamudra which is probably present in the Nyingma beforehand, right?

[Malcolm]

No, that is not so -- there was a lot of gsar ma material in Tibet when Mila was a youth. He just happened to have had Nyingma masters.

Sarma material, of course I agree with that.

But is there anything unique about Sarma material?

Bottomline of Sarma is tummo and karmamudra which is probably present in the Nyingma beforehand, right?

Actually, we have eleventh century Nyingma masters complaining about all this new-fangled stuff with cakras, and nadis and so on that was a Hindu corruption of Buddhism. They reacted quite negatively to Hevajra, Kalacakra, Cakrasamvara and so on at first.

[adinatha]

Mila had ten Nyingma masters before he met Marpa.

N

That's interesting and makes plenty of sense. What's the deal with his relationship with Marpa? He did consider Marpa his root guru no? It's funny, because Gampopa asked him, hey what's all the fuss about Dzogchen? Gampopa quotes Mila in one of the Kagyu's more cherished teachings of Gampopa, that Dzogchen is for 8th Bhumis and up. Then, that becomes Kagyu dogma.

[Malcolm]

Mila had ten Nyingma masters before he met Marpa.

N

That's interesting and makes plenty of sense. What's the deal with his relationship with Marpa? He did consider Marpa his root guru no? It's funny, because Gampopa asked him, hey what's all the fuss about Dzogchen? Gampopa quotes Mila in one of the Kagyu's more cherished teachings of Gampopa, that Dzogchen is for 8th Bhumis and up. Then, that becomes Kagyu dogma.

There is another place, in Gampopa's advice to Gomchung, where he pretty much eviscerates mahāmudra, dzogchen, and so on in favor of what he terms "tathatā".

[adinatha]

Bottomline of Sarma is tummo and karmamudra which is probably present in the Nyingma beforehand, right?

Saraha taught a Sahaja Mahamudra not connected with tummo or karmamudra. There seems to be language in his dohas that are reminiscent of a luminosity teaching as well. Taranatha seems to indicate he taught this to Padmasambhava.

[adinatha]

There is another place, in Gampopa's advice to Gomchung, where he pretty much eviscerates mahāmudra, dzogchen, and so on in favor of what he terms "tathatā".

Yes. This view came to the fore in Jigten Sumgon's Gongchig in his vajra verse where he says the highest view is nonattachment to the Three Great views.

My feeling is this is Saraha's stand-alone mahamudra as clear light lineage.

[Malcolm]

My feeling is this is Saraha's stand-alone mahamudra as clear light lineage.

Perhaps, but Yangongpa, writing on sahaja-mahāmudra is critical of 'od gsal and rejects the idea that mahāmudra and ābhāsvarāḥ are synonymous because luminosity lacks appearances.

[adinatha]

No, that is not so -- there was a lot of gsar ma material in Tibet when Mila was a youth. He just happened to have had Nyingma masters.

Sarma material, of course I agree with that.

But is there anything unique about Sarma material?

Bottomline of Sarma is tummo and karmamudra which is probably present in the Nyingma beforehand, right?

Actually, we have eleventh century Nyingma masters complaining about all this new-fangled stuff with cakras, and nadis and so on that was a Hindu corruption of Buddhism. They reacted quite negatively to Hevajra, Kalacakra, Cakrasamvara and so on at first.

That's wierd didn't Guru Padma teach prana, nadi and bindu?

[Enochian]

No, that is not so -- there was a lot of gsar ma material in Tibet when Mila was a youth. He just happened to have had Nyingma masters.

Sarma material, of course I agree with that.

But is there anything unique about Sarma material?

Bottomline of Sarma is tummo and karmamudra which is probably present in the Nyingma beforehand, right?

Actually, we have eleventh century Nyingma masters complaining about all this new-fangled stuff with cakras, and nadis and so on that was a Hindu corruption of Buddhism. They reacted quite negatively to Hevajra, Kalacakra, Cakrasamvara and so on at first.

Its not about the root tantras and deities themselves.

Didn't Nyingmas have tummo before Sarma?

[adinatha]

My feeling is this is Saraha's stand-alone mahamudra as clear light lineage.

Perhaps, but Yangongpa, writing on sahaja-mahāmudra is critical of 'od gsal and rejects the idea that mahāmudra and ābhāsvarāḥ are synonymous because luminosity lacks appearances.

I'm not familiar with Yangongpa, but I don't see how anyone gets around inseparability.

[Malcolm]

Didn't Nyingmas have tummo before Sarma?

Tricky question. Tummo appears to have originated in the Hevajra tantra. We have tummo texts ala Krishnacarya in Dunhuang, but these are somewhat late.

The fact is that unless we accept the terma tradition as having probative value for dating practices in Tibet, it is hard to know.

[Malcolm]

My feeling is this is Saraha's stand-alone mahamudra as clear light lineage.

Perhaps, but Yangongpa, writing on sahaja-mahāmudra is critical of 'od gsal and rejects the idea that mahāmudra and ābhāsvarāḥ are synonymous because luminosity lacks appearances.

I'm not familiar with Yangongpa, but I don't see how anyone gets around inseparability.

You will have to read Yangong yourself. He is an extremely important Drugpa Kabgyu master who exclaimed "This begger's realization came from Dzogchen" and write one of the defining treatises on Mahamudra and the four yogas of Mahamudra. He considers the four yogas of Mahamudra to be Gampopa's unique system developed out of Gampopa's own experience on the basis of sahaja mahamudra.

[adinatha]

Didn't Nyingmas have tummo before Sarma?

Tricky question. Tummo appears to have originated in the Hevajra tantra. We have tummo texts ala Krishnacarya in Dunhuang, but these are somewhat late.

The fact is that unless we accept the terma tradition as having probative value for dating practices in Tibet, it is hard to know.

Then the termas which transmit tummo, being post-Hevajra means Guru Padma felt it better these should be revealed after Hevajra? Or it also implies the termas with tummo are Hevajra knock-offs.

[adinatha]

You will have to read Yangong yourself. He is an extremely important Drugpa Kabgyu master who exclaimed "This begger's realization came from Dzogchen" and write one of the defining treatises on Mahamudra and the four yogas of Mahamudra.

I have the Padma Karpo material about four yogas. Gampopa is much clearer.

He considers the four yogas of Mahamudra to be Gampopa's unique system developed out of Gampopa's own experience on the basis of sahaja mahamudra.

That's what Jigten Sumgon says too re Gampopa's own experience. However, that doesn't hold up re Four Yogas because, while Gampopa stated the four yogas in a variety of ways, Mila had a song of four yogas and Saraha has a four yoga-like presentation too. Clearly to me four yogas comes from Saraha and is based on the Hevajra Tantra four moments, four blisses, and all those fours. Basically, based on Gampopa's own experience, he did what Mila told him not to do and that was teach sahaja mahamudra independent of tummo.

[Malcolm]

Didn't Nyingmas have tummo before Sarma?

Tricky question. Tummo appears to have originated in the Hevajra tantra. We have tummo texts ala Krishnacarya in Dunhuang, but these are somewhat late.

The fact is that unless we accept the terma tradition as having probative value for dating practices in Tibet, it is hard to know.

Then the termas which transmit tummo, being post-Hevajra means Guru Padma felt it better these should be revealed after Hevajra? Or it also implies the termas with tummo are Hevajra knock-offs.

That all depends on whether you are text critical scholar or not, or even care. I think the western scholarly consensus is that channel and nadi theory was borrowed by Nyingmapas from sngags gsar ma tantras, especially Vajramala.

But the dating of Tantric material in India is very problematical, as you know.

[Malcolm]

He considers the four yogas of Mahamudra to be Gampopa's unique system developed out of Gampopa's own experience on the basis of sahaja mahamudra.

That's what Jigten Sumgon says too re Gampopa's own experience. However, that doesn't hold up re Four Yogas because, while Gampopa stated the four yogas in a variety of ways, Mila had a song of four yogas and Saraha has a four yoga-like presentation too. Clearly to me four yogas comes from Saraha and is based on the Hevajra Tantra four moments, four blisses, and all those fours. Basically, based on Gampopa's own experience, he did what Mila told him not to do and that was teach sahaja mahamudra independent of tummo.

Have you considered the possibility that the Mila song is a later composition?

It is far more likely that the four yogas were adapted from Ratnakarashanti's Madhyamaka-alamkara and its upadesha where four yogas are explicitly taught. Alternately, they were adapted from the four samadhis of Semsde. Adzom Drugpa, when presenting Semsde, actually uses the scheme of the four yogas.

N

[adinatha]

Have you considered the possibility that the Mila song is a later composition?

It is far more likely that the four yogas were adapted from Ratnakarashanti's Madhyamaka-alamkara and its upadesha where four yogas are explicitly taught. Alternately, they were adapted from the four samadhis of Semsde. Adzom Drugpa, when presenting Semsde, actually uses the scheme of the four yogas.

N

That doesn't explain Saraha's Four Symbols of Mahamudra in the King Doha, and he is one Hevajra revealer. One also must look at the earliest evidence of Semsde's four samadhis. Adzom Drugpa was like 19th Cent. Do they predate Saraha? My feeling is that there is ridiculous cross-fertilization, me-too-ism and one-ups-manship. For me, the only really clear and true lineage is the timeless lineage of ultimate realization. Everything else is just handy tools and nifty tricks.

[adinatha]

Another very important thing about Kagyu Mahamudra is that at least for Drikung Kagyu, four yogas are presented as inseparability as nonmeditation, and are basically glossed over. For them, the oral pith instructions to Tilopa's Ganga Mahamudra are the highest explanation of mahamudra. There, there are no stages or yogas. Nonmeditation is presented as highest acumen. Tummo as medium acumen students basis to get the view. And karmamudra as lowest acumen students basis to get the view. For nonmeditation, mind is introduced as emptiness. Then, thoughts-feelings are introduced as emptiness. Then, appearances are introduced as emptiness. Finally, inseparability is introduced.

[conebeckham]

For what it's worth... Mila said...

"...stabbed from the front by mahāmudra, stabbed from the back by Dzogchen."

Mila had ten Nyingma masters before he met Marpa.

N

Well by default they had to be Nyingma, since the other schools didn't exist yet.

Not sure about this...what about the Kadampa? Are you saying there was no such thing during Mila's time?

[conebeckham]

Tricky question. Tummo appears to have originated in the Hevajra tantra. We have tummo texts ala Krishnacarya in Dunhuang, but these are somewhat late.

The fact is that unless we accept the terma tradition as having probative value for dating practices in Tibet, it is hard to know.

Then the termas which transmit tummo, being post-Hevajra means Guru Padma felt it better these should be revealed after Hevajra? Or it also implies the termas with tummo are Hevajra knock-offs.

That all depends on whether you are text critical scholar or not, or even care. I think the western scholarly consensus is that channel and nadi theory was borrowed by Nyingmapas from sngags gsar ma tantras, especially Vajramala.

But the dating of Tantric material in India is very problematical, as you know.

Well, what about the completion stage of Yangdak?