Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Enochian » Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:32 pm

Nangwa wrote:The so-called body of light is only attainable through Dzogchen.



What you cited doesn't prove your assertion at all.


Moreover....


Namdrol wrote:A Dzogchen without Buddhism is impossible for the simple reason that Dzoghen is a method of becoming a Buddha and nothing else.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:36 pm

Will wrote:Nor was there Buddhism when Buddha was "rockin"; nor Geluk when Je Rinpoche etcetera....
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"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Josef » Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:36 pm

Enochian wrote:
Nangwa wrote:The so-called body of light is only attainable through Dzogchen.



What you cited doesn't prove your assertion at all.


Moreover....


Namdrol wrote:A Dzogchen without Buddhism is impossible for the simple reason that Dzoghen is a method of becoming a Buddha and nothing else.

Still not clear on what the contradiction is.
My best guess is that you think all forms of realization that are often called "buddhahood" in Vajrayana result in the jalu.
This is simply untrue. The only path that produces jalu or "rainbow body" is Dzogchen. Not all forms of Vajrayana realization are equivalent.
You are the one making assertions here Enochian. The rest of us are trying to help you resolve this perceived contradiction but you havent clarified what you think the conflict is and its quite clear that you assume all Vajrayana methods lead to jalu, which is simply not the case.
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Enochian » Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:41 pm

A jalu is nothing other than Sambhogakāya. Even Rechungpa, Marpa etc. bodies disappeared at death. Wouldn't you call that jalu?
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby tamdrin » Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:52 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Will wrote:Tulku can be used very loosely, maybe it was used that way for those Kagyu sages.
There was no Kagyu yet when Naropa, Marpa and Milarepa were rockin'!



Yes they definetely still considered themselves the Kagyu... But there was no drikung, karma, drukpa, kagyu etc.. no dwagpo kagyu..
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Josef » Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:54 pm

Enochian wrote:A jalu is nothing other than Sambhogakāya. Even Rechungpa, Marpa etc. bodies disappeared at death. Wouldn't you call that rainbow body?

No.
Jalu, great transference etc. occur at the time of death. The physical body dissolves into the elements and the three kaya's manifest simultaneously. This is not "nothing other" than sambhogakaya. Sambhogakaya is in there for sure but there is a difference in the sense of how the realization manifests and occurs.
I wasnt there when Rechungpa and Marpa died so I dont know if their bodies disappeared or shrunk or whatever, so I dont know if they achieved jalu or not.
I havent heard any stories of them attaining it. As far as the namthar's are concerned they utilized different methods of attainment so perhaps they practiced phowa at the time of death or some other method but I wouldnt call anything rainbow body that wasnt rainbow body and the only thing that is rainbow body is when a Dzogchen practitioners body dissolves into the elements completely or shrinks at the time of death and they achieve the levels of buddhahood mentioned in my previous post.

You have still neglected to explicitly state what you think the contradiction is.
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby tamdrin » Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:55 pm

anyway if you read Milarepa's Namthar closely and many times, you will come to understand it.. Milarepa manifested himself at two different places at the same time at once..at his death Rechungpa saw him somewhere and other followers saw him elsewhere at the same time..
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Josef » Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:56 pm

tamdrin wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:
Will wrote:Tulku can be used very loosely, maybe it was used that way for those Kagyu sages.
There was no Kagyu yet when Naropa, Marpa and Milarepa were rockin'!



Yes they definetely still considered themselves the Kagyu... But there was no drikung, karma, drukpa, kagyu etc.. no dwagpo kagyu..


They might have used the words but I doubt that anyone really identified as Kagyu until Gampopa.
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Josef » Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:57 pm

tamdrin wrote:anyway if you read Milarepa's Namthar closely and many times, you will come to understand it.. Milarepa manifested himself at two different places at the same time at once..at his death Rechungpa saw him somewhere and other followers saw him elsewhere at the same time..

This is siddhi, not necessarily jalu.
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Enochian » Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:05 pm

Nangwa wrote:You have still neglected to explicitly state what you think the contradiction is.


Once a regular human, like any of us, obtains Buddhahood BEFORE DEATH his physical body should become a Sambhogakāya, a body of light like Tilopa.


Nangwa wrote:I wasnt there when Rechungpa and Marpa died so I dont know if their bodies disappeared or shrunk or whatever, so I dont know if they achieved jalu or not.


The point isn't what actually happened, but what the Tibetans claim happened.
Last edited by Enochian on Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby tamdrin » Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:05 pm

whatever,
nonetheless if you read the hundred thousand songs Milarepa knew, and taught what was known as "the secret teaching of the Thogal"
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Josef » Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:07 pm

Enochian wrote:
Nangwa wrote:You have still neglected to explicitly state what you think the contradiction is.


Once a regular human, like any of us, obtains Buddhahood BEFORE DEATH his physical body should become a Sambhogakāya, a body of light like Tilopa.



I disagree.
Perhaps a person who attains buddhahood in this body can manifest a sambhogakaya pure land and be seen in that form by individuals of a certain capacity. But this doesnt mean that the nirmanakaya disappears.
Last edited by Josef on Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Josef » Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:07 pm

tamdrin wrote:whatever,
nonetheless if you read the hundred thousand songs Milarepa knew, and taught what was known as "the secret teaching of the Thogal"

I dont doubt that.
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Enochian » Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:14 pm

Nangwa wrote:
Enochian wrote:
Nangwa wrote:You have still neglected to explicitly state what you think the contradiction is.


Once a regular human, like any of us, obtains Buddhahood BEFORE DEATH his physical body should become a Sambhogakāya, a body of light like Tilopa.



I disagree.
Perhaps a person who attains buddhahood in this body can manifest a sambhogakaya pure land and be seen in that form by individuals of a certain capacity. But this doesnt mean that the nirmanakaya disappears.



ok i see what you are saying. but is this canonically accurate?
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
Enochian
 
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Josef » Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:20 pm

Enochian wrote:
ok i see what you are saying. but is this canonically accurate?


As far as I know.
I'm sure someone will hit this thread and give more details than I can on how the attainments of annutarayoga tantra manifest but I do know that jalu or rainbow body is very specific and only a part of Dzogchen. Its even specific and unique to mengagde.
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Enochian » Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:44 pm

Nangwa wrote:
Enochian wrote:
ok i see what you are saying. but is this canonically accurate?


As far as I know.
I'm sure someone will hit this thread and give more details than I can on how the attainments of annutarayoga tantra manifest but I do know that jalu or rainbow body is very specific and only a part of Dzogchen. Its even specific and unique to mengagde.



You had me agreeing with you, and then you say something ridiculous like this LOL :crying:
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
Enochian
 
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Malcolm » Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:46 pm

Enochian wrote:These guys were not emanations.

They were regular humans like us that worked hard to obtain Sambhogakāya.

There is a contradiction here which is disturbing.



All Sambhogakāyas have a nirmankāya.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
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there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Malcolm » Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:47 pm

Enochian wrote:

ok i see what you are saying. but is this canonically accurate?


Yes. It also makes common sense.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Josef » Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:49 pm

Enochian wrote:
Nangwa wrote:
Enochian wrote:
ok i see what you are saying. but is this canonically accurate?


As far as I know.
I'm sure someone will hit this thread and give more details than I can on how the attainments of annutarayoga tantra manifest but I do know that jalu or rainbow body is very specific and only a part of Dzogchen. Its even specific and unique to mengagde.



You had me agreeing with you, and then you say something ridiculous like this LOL :crying:

Which part is ridiculous?
If its the part about mengagde I meant that only the mengagde class contains the instructions on the methods that lead to jalu.
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Malcolm » Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:55 pm

Enochian wrote:A jalu is nothing other than Sambhogakāya. Even Rechungpa, Marpa etc. bodies disappeared at death. Wouldn't you call that jalu?


A body disappearing does not equal rainbow body. Often, when people realize rainbow body, their bodies just shrink.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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