Dharma Wheel

A Buddhist discussion forum on Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism
It is currently Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:48 pm

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 142 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 8  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:06 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:19 pm
Posts: 364
Something that bothers me.

Did Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa have physical bodies after Buddhahood?

If so that contradicts Vajrayana itself. After Buddhahood is obtained, one should no longer have a physical body.

_________________
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:37 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am
Posts: 12736
Enochian wrote:
Something that bothers me.

Did Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa have physical bodies after Buddhahood?

If so that contradicts Vajrayana itself. After Buddhahood is obtained, one should no longer have a physical body.



If this was the case, there could be no nirmanakāya.

_________________
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:19 pm
Posts: 364
These guys were not emanations.

They were regular humans like us that worked hard to obtain Sambhogakāya.

There is a contradiction here which is disturbing.

_________________
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:01 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm
Posts: 5771
Enochian:

Trying to follow your argument here. What do you mean by nirmanakaya? that is, how do you understand that term to mean? Is it exactly and exclusively the same as "emanation"? come to think of it, I'm not sure I understand that term in the same way you do either. Would you please clarify it a bit?

_________________
Need help getting on retreat? Want to support others in practice? Pay the Dana for Dharma forum a visit...

viewtopic.php?f=114&t=13727


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:19 pm
Posts: 364
I think Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche says in one of his books that Marpa used phowa at death, which implies Marpa was NOT a Buddha before death?

_________________
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:06 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:02 am
Posts: 683
Yes Enochian, could you explain what you see as a contradiction? :shrug: If nirmanakaya = emanation body (literal translation) then I don't see the problem. A nirmanakaya is technically not possible until buddhahood is reached. . . any ordinary being has the potential to attain buddhahood, and with it the 3 kayas, including nirmanakaya emanations.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:14 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:19 pm
Posts: 364
dakini_boi wrote:
Yes Enochian, could you explain what you see as a contradiction? :shrug: If nirmanakaya = emanation body (literal translation) then I don't see the problem. A nirmanakaya is technically not possible until buddhahood is reached. . . any ordinary being has the potential to attain buddhahood, and with it the 3 kayas, including nirmanakaya emanations.



Namdrol knows quite well that Naropa, Marpa and Milarepa weren't nirmankayas.

I think he is covering up an obvious contradiction in Tibetan buddhism, which has been going on for centuries.

And the funny thing is that the biographies of these guys are mostly lies anyway, so why didn't they fix this contradiction?

_________________
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:02 am
Posts: 683
I still don't understand the contradiction. They might not have been nirmanakayas, but once any ordinary (non-nirmanakaya) being attains buddhahood, they will have attained all 3 kayas.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:25 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm
Posts: 1565
Enochian wrote:
dakini_boi wrote:
Yes Enochian, could you explain what you see as a contradiction? :shrug: If nirmanakaya = emanation body (literal translation) then I don't see the problem. A nirmanakaya is technically not possible until buddhahood is reached. . . any ordinary being has the potential to attain buddhahood, and with it the 3 kayas, including nirmanakaya emanations.



Namdrol knows quite well that Naropa, Marpa and Milarepa weren't nirmankayas.

I think he is covering up an obvious contradiction in Tibetan buddhism, which has been going on for centuries.

And the funny thing is that the biographies of these guys are mostly lies anyway, so why didn't they fix this contradiction?

Its still unclear what you think the contradiction is?
The namthar's arent necessarily "lies", they may be parable but not lies.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:19 pm
Posts: 364
Once a regular human, like any of us, obtains Buddhahood DURING LIFE his physical body should become a Sambhogakāya, a body of light.

_________________
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:32 pm 
Online
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Posts: 10289
Location: Greece
Enochian wrote:
Something that bothers me.

Did Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa have physical bodies after Buddhahood?

If so that contradicts Vajrayana itself. After Buddhahood is obtained, one should no longer have a physical body.
What is your main practice Enochian? Who is your teacher?
:namaste:

_________________
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:34 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am
Posts: 1952
Tulku can be used very loosely, maybe it was used that way for those Kagyu sages.

_________________
Only consider helping others and forget yourself. Master Hsuan Hua


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:02 am
Posts: 683
Enochian wrote:
Once a regular human, like any of us, obtains Buddhahood DURING LIFE his physical body should become a Sambhogakāya, a body of light.


I think you've been misinformed. Where did you hear this? Attaining buddhahood results in the 3 kayas (3 bodies of a buddha) - dharmakaya, sambhogakaya, nirmanakaya. Dharmakaya and sambhogakaya are generally beyond the limits of ordinary beings to perceive; nirmanakaya are physical emanations.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:41 pm 
Online
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Posts: 10289
Location: Greece
Will wrote:
Tulku can be used very loosely, maybe it was used that way for those Kagyu sages.
There was no Kagyu yet when Naropa, Marpa and Milarepa were rockin'!

_________________
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:42 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm
Posts: 5771
Enochian wrote:
Namdrol knows quite well that Naropa, Marpa and Milarepa weren't nirmankayas.

I think he is covering up an obvious contradiction in Tibetan buddhism, which has been going on for centuries.

And the funny thing is that the biographies of these guys are mostly lies anyway, so why didn't they fix this contradiction?


Sweet, another centuries-old conspiracy! :thumbsup: Hope it measures up to the gold standard in paranoid air-castles, concerning the decor & design of the Denver Int'l Airport...

http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Denver_Airport.html

_________________
Need help getting on retreat? Want to support others in practice? Pay the Dana for Dharma forum a visit...

viewtopic.php?f=114&t=13727


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm
Posts: 1565
Enochian wrote:
Once a regular human, like any of us, obtains Buddhahood DURING LIFE his physical body should become a Sambhogakāya, a body of light.

Only if they practice thogal.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:46 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:19 pm
Posts: 364
Nangwa wrote:
Enochian wrote:
Once a regular human, like any of us, obtains Buddhahood DURING LIFE his physical body should become a Sambhogakāya, a body of light.

Only if they practice thogal.



Oh come on.

Namdrol says somewhere on this forum that the goal of Dzogchen is nothing other than Buddhahood.

Dzogchen is not fundamentally different than the rest of Vajrayana.


For god's sake even Zen recognizes the 3 Kayas

_________________
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:49 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm
Posts: 1565
Enochian wrote:
Nangwa wrote:
Enochian wrote:
Once a regular human, like any of us, obtains Buddhahood DURING LIFE his physical body should become a Sambhogakāya, a body of light.

Only if they practice thogal.



Oh come on.

Namdrol says somewhere on this forum that the goal of Dzogchen is nothing other than Buddhahood.

Dzogchen is not fundamentally different than the rest of Vajrayana.


For god's sake even Zen recognizes the 3 Kayas

Here are the two types of Buddhahood that result in the rainbow body. They are only attainable via thogal/Dzogchen.

"Dzogchen describes two states of final Buddhahood: abhisambodhi and samyaksambodhi. The former is with residue, the latter without residue."—Namdrol from the Rainbow Body Misconception thread

There are different methods with different results that culminate in Buddhahood. The so-called body of light is only attainable through Dzogchen.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:58 pm 
Online
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Posts: 10289
Location: Greece
gregkavarnos wrote:
Enochian wrote:
Something that bothers me.

Did Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa have physical bodies after Buddhahood?

If so that contradicts Vajrayana itself. After Buddhahood is obtained, one should no longer have a physical body.
What is your main practice Enochian? Who is your teacher?
:namaste:

No teacher? No practice?
:namaste:

_________________
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am
Posts: 1952
gregkavarnos wrote:
Will wrote:
Tulku can be used very loosely, maybe it was used that way for those Kagyu sages.
There was no Kagyu yet when Naropa, Marpa and Milarepa were rockin'!


Nor was there Buddhism when Buddha was "rockin"; nor Geluk when Je Rinpoche etcetera....

_________________
Only consider helping others and forget yourself. Master Hsuan Hua


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 142 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 8  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group