Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

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Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Enochian » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:06 pm

Something that bothers me.

Did Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa have physical bodies after Buddhahood?

If so that contradicts Vajrayana itself. After Buddhahood is obtained, one should no longer have a physical body.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Malcolm » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:37 pm

Enochian wrote:Something that bothers me.

Did Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa have physical bodies after Buddhahood?

If so that contradicts Vajrayana itself. After Buddhahood is obtained, one should no longer have a physical body.



If this was the case, there could be no nirmanakāya.
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Enochian » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:58 pm

These guys were not emanations.

They were regular humans like us that worked hard to obtain Sambhogakāya.

There is a contradiction here which is disturbing.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Jikan » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:01 pm

Enochian:

Trying to follow your argument here. What do you mean by nirmanakaya? that is, how do you understand that term to mean? Is it exactly and exclusively the same as "emanation"? come to think of it, I'm not sure I understand that term in the same way you do either. Would you please clarify it a bit?
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Enochian » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:05 pm

I think Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche says in one of his books that Marpa used phowa at death, which implies Marpa was NOT a Buddha before death?
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby dakini_boi » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:06 pm

Yes Enochian, could you explain what you see as a contradiction? :shrug: If nirmanakaya = emanation body (literal translation) then I don't see the problem. A nirmanakaya is technically not possible until buddhahood is reached. . . any ordinary being has the potential to attain buddhahood, and with it the 3 kayas, including nirmanakaya emanations.
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Enochian » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:14 pm

dakini_boi wrote:Yes Enochian, could you explain what you see as a contradiction? :shrug: If nirmanakaya = emanation body (literal translation) then I don't see the problem. A nirmanakaya is technically not possible until buddhahood is reached. . . any ordinary being has the potential to attain buddhahood, and with it the 3 kayas, including nirmanakaya emanations.



Namdrol knows quite well that Naropa, Marpa and Milarepa weren't nirmankayas.

I think he is covering up an obvious contradiction in Tibetan buddhism, which has been going on for centuries.

And the funny thing is that the biographies of these guys are mostly lies anyway, so why didn't they fix this contradiction?
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby dakini_boi » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:24 pm

I still don't understand the contradiction. They might not have been nirmanakayas, but once any ordinary (non-nirmanakaya) being attains buddhahood, they will have attained all 3 kayas.
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Josef » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:25 pm

Enochian wrote:
dakini_boi wrote:Yes Enochian, could you explain what you see as a contradiction? :shrug: If nirmanakaya = emanation body (literal translation) then I don't see the problem. A nirmanakaya is technically not possible until buddhahood is reached. . . any ordinary being has the potential to attain buddhahood, and with it the 3 kayas, including nirmanakaya emanations.



Namdrol knows quite well that Naropa, Marpa and Milarepa weren't nirmankayas.

I think he is covering up an obvious contradiction in Tibetan buddhism, which has been going on for centuries.

And the funny thing is that the biographies of these guys are mostly lies anyway, so why didn't they fix this contradiction?

Its still unclear what you think the contradiction is?
The namthar's arent necessarily "lies", they may be parable but not lies.
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Enochian » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:27 pm

Once a regular human, like any of us, obtains Buddhahood DURING LIFE his physical body should become a Sambhogakāya, a body of light.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:32 pm

Enochian wrote:Something that bothers me.

Did Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa have physical bodies after Buddhahood?

If so that contradicts Vajrayana itself. After Buddhahood is obtained, one should no longer have a physical body.
What is your main practice Enochian? Who is your teacher?
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Will » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:34 pm

Tulku can be used very loosely, maybe it was used that way for those Kagyu sages.
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby dakini_boi » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:35 pm

Enochian wrote:Once a regular human, like any of us, obtains Buddhahood DURING LIFE his physical body should become a Sambhogakāya, a body of light.


I think you've been misinformed. Where did you hear this? Attaining buddhahood results in the 3 kayas (3 bodies of a buddha) - dharmakaya, sambhogakaya, nirmanakaya. Dharmakaya and sambhogakaya are generally beyond the limits of ordinary beings to perceive; nirmanakaya are physical emanations.
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:41 pm

Will wrote:Tulku can be used very loosely, maybe it was used that way for those Kagyu sages.
There was no Kagyu yet when Naropa, Marpa and Milarepa were rockin'!
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Jikan » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:42 pm

Enochian wrote:Namdrol knows quite well that Naropa, Marpa and Milarepa weren't nirmankayas.

I think he is covering up an obvious contradiction in Tibetan buddhism, which has been going on for centuries.

And the funny thing is that the biographies of these guys are mostly lies anyway, so why didn't they fix this contradiction?


Sweet, another centuries-old conspiracy! :thumbsup: Hope it measures up to the gold standard in paranoid air-castles, concerning the decor & design of the Denver Int'l Airport...

http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Denver_Airport.html
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Josef » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:42 pm

Enochian wrote:Once a regular human, like any of us, obtains Buddhahood DURING LIFE his physical body should become a Sambhogakāya, a body of light.

Only if they practice thogal.
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Enochian » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:46 pm

Nangwa wrote:
Enochian wrote:Once a regular human, like any of us, obtains Buddhahood DURING LIFE his physical body should become a Sambhogakāya, a body of light.

Only if they practice thogal.



Oh come on.

Namdrol says somewhere on this forum that the goal of Dzogchen is nothing other than Buddhahood.

Dzogchen is not fundamentally different than the rest of Vajrayana.


For god's sake even Zen recognizes the 3 Kayas
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Josef » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:49 pm

Enochian wrote:
Nangwa wrote:
Enochian wrote:Once a regular human, like any of us, obtains Buddhahood DURING LIFE his physical body should become a Sambhogakāya, a body of light.

Only if they practice thogal.



Oh come on.

Namdrol says somewhere on this forum that the goal of Dzogchen is nothing other than Buddhahood.

Dzogchen is not fundamentally different than the rest of Vajrayana.


For god's sake even Zen recognizes the 3 Kayas

Here are the two types of Buddhahood that result in the rainbow body. They are only attainable via thogal/Dzogchen.

"Dzogchen describes two states of final Buddhahood: abhisambodhi and samyaksambodhi. The former is with residue, the latter without residue."—Namdrol from the Rainbow Body Misconception thread

There are different methods with different results that culminate in Buddhahood. The so-called body of light is only attainable through Dzogchen.
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:58 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Enochian wrote:Something that bothers me.

Did Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa have physical bodies after Buddhahood?

If so that contradicts Vajrayana itself. After Buddhahood is obtained, one should no longer have a physical body.
What is your main practice Enochian? Who is your teacher?
:namaste:

No teacher? No practice?
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me

Postby Will » Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:15 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Will wrote:Tulku can be used very loosely, maybe it was used that way for those Kagyu sages.
There was no Kagyu yet when Naropa, Marpa and Milarepa were rockin'!


Nor was there Buddhism when Buddha was "rockin"; nor Geluk when Je Rinpoche etcetera....
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
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