A teacher's teachings

[ground]

Once I experienced a tibetan teacher who gave appealing teachings. Really good.
But then in some other lectures he began talking about ghosts and strange kinds of beings being the cause of this and that negative phenomenon one experiences, somehow blaming some negativity on some external "given" phenomena. That appeared strange to me and somehow not compliant with buddhist teachings and I decided to reject such sort of teachings.
Now this did not lead to rejection of this person as a teacher or rejection of all of his teachings but just to the rejection of the teachings that I found to be the opposite of "conducive".

Now what happend was this: when it came to debating things with other followers of this teacher other followers accused me of not following exactly and all of what this teacher taught. They claimed that if one wanted to follow a teaching of a special teacher one mandatorily has to accept and follow each and every teaching of this teacher.

I let them have their talk but did not bother any further. In this way I could retain the advantages of the conducive teachings without having to subscribe to non-conducive teachings.

Another thing I learned from that is that one should be very cautious when it comes to associating with people.


Kind regards

[ground]

As an amendment:

The above illustrates what I have experienced to be a very reliable approach:
The "gold standard" is the Buddha's teachings in the sutta pitaka. Every teaching that does not have "a correlate" there either has to be handled very very cautiously or - maybe better (safer) in many cases - has to be rejected.
So the basis necessarily has to be one's own experience. Therefore it is very problematic to surrender one's own experience to someone who does not teach "the gold standard" in the first place.

Kind regards

[Malcolm]

As an amendment:

The above illustrates what I have experienced to be a very reliable approach:
The "gold standard" is the Buddha's teachings in the sutta pitaka. Every teaching that does not have "a correlate" there either has to be handled very very cautiously or - maybe better (safer) in many cases - has to be rejected.
So the basis necessarily has to be one's own experience. Therefore it is very problematic to surrender one's own experience to someone who does not teach "the gold standard" in the first place.

Kind regards

Good luck with that.

[Dechen Norbu]

In the old days our experience pointed to the flatness of the Earth.
Our experience is often deluded.


From http://www.accesstoinsight.org

Tirokudda Kanda: Hungry Shades Outside the Walls
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu

The Petavatthu contains 51 poems, each explaining how unwholesome deeds led to the rebirth of a being into the miserable realm of the "hungry ghosts" (peta).
Tirokudda Kanda — Hungry Shades Outside the Walls. Some of your ancestors and deceased loved ones may have been reborn as hungry ghosts, no longer able to fend for themselves. In this poem the Buddha explains that it is to your long-term benefit — and to theirs — that you honor their memory with gifts.

Outside the walls they stand,
& at crossroads.
At door posts they stand,
returning to their old homes.
But when a meal with plentiful food & drink is served,
no one remembers them:
Such is the kamma of living beings.

Thus those who feel sympathy for their dead relatives
give timely donations of proper food & drink
— exquisite, clean —
[thinking:] "May this be for our relatives.
May our relatives be happy!"

And those who have gathered there,
the assembled shades of the relatives,
with appreciation give their blessing
for the plentiful food & drink:
"May our relatives live long
because of whom we have gained [this gift].
We have been honored,
and the donors are not without reward!"

For there [in their realm] there's
no farming,
no herding of cattle,
no commerce,
no trading with money.
They live on what is given here,
hungry shades
whose time here is done.

As water raining on a hill
flows down to the valley,
even so does what is given here
benefit the dead.
As rivers full of water
fill the ocean full,
even so does what is given here
benefit the dead.

"He gave to me, she acted on my behalf,
they were my relatives, companions, friends":
Offerings should be given for the dead
when one reflects thus
on things done in the past.
For no weeping,
no sorrowing
no other lamentation
benefits the dead
whose relatives persist in that way.
But when this offering is given, well-placed in the Sangha,
it works for their long-term benefit
and they profit immediately.

In this way
the proper duty to relatives has been shown,
great honor has been done to the dead,
and monks have been given strength:

The merit you've acquired
isn't small.

[Dechen Norbu]

Ratana Sutta: The Jewel Discourse

The occasion for this discourse, in brief, according to the commentary, is as follows: The city of Vesali was afflicted by a famine, causing death, especially to the poor folk. Due to the presence of decaying corpses the evil spirits began to haunt the city; this was followed by a pestilence. Plagued by these three fears of famine, non-human beings and pestilence, the citizens sought the help of the Buddha who was then living at Rajagaha.

Followed by a large number of monks including the Venerable Ananda, his attendant disciple, the Buddha came to the city of Vesali. With the arrival of the Master, there were torrential rains which swept away the putrefying corpses. The atmosphere became purified, the city was clean.

Thereupon the Buddha delivered this Jewel Discourse (Ratana sutta[1]) to the Venerable Ananda, and gave him instructions as to how he should tour the city with the Licchavi citizens reciting the discourse as a mark of protection to the people of Vesali. The Venerable Ananda followed the instructions, and sprinkled the sanctified water from the Buddha's own alms bowl. As a consequence the evil spirits were exorcised, the pestilence subsided. Thereafter the Venerable Ananda returned with the citizens of Vesali to the Public hall where the Buddha and his disciples had assembled awaiting his arrival. There the Buddha recited the same Jewel Discourse to the gathering:

1. "Whatever beings (non-humans) are assembled here, terrestrial or celestial, may they all have peace of mind, and may they listen attentively to these words:

2. "O beings, listen closely. May you all radiate loving-kindness to those human beings who, by day and night, bring offerings to you (offer merit to you). Wherefore, protect them with diligence.

3. "Whatever treasure there be either here or in the world beyond, whatever precious jewel there be in the heavenly worlds, there is nought comparable to the Tathagata (the perfect One). This precious jewel is the Buddha.[2] By this (asseveration of the) truth may there be happiness.

4. "That Cessation, that Detachment, that Deathlessness (Nibbana) supreme, the calm and collected Sakyan Sage (the Buddha) had realized. There is nought comparable to this (Nibbana) Dhamma. This precious jewel is the Dhamma.[3] By this (asseveration of the) truth may there be happiness.

5. "The Supreme Buddha extolled a path of purity (the Noble Eightfold Path) calling it the path which unfailingly brings concentration. There is nought comparable to this concentration. This precious jewel is the Dhamma. By this (asseveration of the) truth may there be happiness.

6. "The eight persons extolled by virtuous men constitute four pairs. They are the disciples of the Buddha and are worthy of offerings. Gifts given to them yield rich results. This precious jewel is the Sangha.[4] By this (asseveration of the) truth may there be happiness.

7. "With a steadfast mind, and applying themselves well in the dispensation of the Buddha Gotama, free from (defilements), they have attained to that which should be attained (arahantship) encountering the Deathless. They enjoy the Peace of Nibbana freely obtained.[5] This precious jewel is the Sangha. By this (asseveration of the) truth may there be happiness.

8. "As a post deep-planted in the earth stands unshaken by the winds from the four quarters, so, too, I declare is the righteous man who comprehends with wisdom the Noble Truths. This precious jewel is the Sangha. By this (asseveration of the) truth may there be happiness.

9. "Those who realized the Noble Truths well taught by him who is profound in wisdom (the Buddha), even though they may be exceedingly heedless, they will not take an eighth existence (in the realm of sense spheres).[6] This precious jewel is the Sangha. By this (asseveration of the) truth may there be happiness.

10. "With his gaining of insight he abandons three states of mind, namely self-illusion, doubt, and indulgence in meaningless rites and rituals, should there be any. He is also fully freed from the four states of woe, and therefore, incapable of committing the six major wrongdoings.[7] This precious jewel is the Sangha. By this (asseveration of the) truth may there be happiness.

11. "Any evil action he may still do by deed, word or thought, he is incapable of concealing it; since it has been proclaimed that such concealing is impossible for one who has seen the Path (of Nibbana).[8] This precious jewel is the Sangha. By this (asseveration of the) truth may there be happiness.

12. "As the woodland groves though in the early heat of the summer month are crowned with blossoming flowers even so is the sublime Dhamma leading to the (calm) of Nibbana which is taught (by the Buddha) for the highest good. This precious jewel is the Buddha. By this (asseveration of the) truth may there be happiness.

13. "The Peerless Excellent one (the Buddha) the Knower (of Nibbana), the Giver (of Nibbana), the Bringer (of the Noble Path), taught the excellent Dhamma. This precious jewel is the Buddha. By this (asseveration of the) truth may there be happiness.

14. "Their past (kamma) is spent, their new (kamma) no more arises, their mind to future becoming is unattached. Their germ (of rebirth-consciousness) has died, they have no more desire for re-living. Those wise men fade out (of existence) as the flame of this lamp (which has just faded away). This precious jewel is the Sangha. By this (asseveration of the) truth may there be happiness.

15. "Whatever beings (non-human) are assembled here, terrestrial or celestial, come let us salute the Buddha, the Tathagata (the perfect One), honored by gods and men. May there be happiness.[9]

16. "Whatever beings are assembled here, terrestrial or celestial, come let us salute the perfect Dhamma, honored by gods and men. May there be happiness.

17. "Whatever beings are assembled here, terrestrial or celestial, come let us salute the perfect Sangha, honored by gods and men. May there be happiness."

[ground]

As an amendment:

The above illustrates what I have experienced to be a very reliable approach:
The "gold standard" is the Buddha's teachings in the sutta pitaka. Every teaching that does not have "a correlate" there either has to be handled very very cautiously or - maybe better (safer) in many cases - has to be rejected.
So the basis necessarily has to be one's own experience. Therefore it is very problematic to surrender one's own experience to someone who does not teach "the gold standard" in the first place.

Kind regards

Good luck with that.

Thanks. Same to you.

kind regards

[ground]

So the thread Finding and leaving the teacher actually was inspired by this experience of mine.

In order to receive benefit, one has to find its source. Once benefit has been received the source of benefit should be left.

As soon as you have received benefit from a teacher, immediately leave him.

Never settle down.

Because if one starts to cling to "teacher" simply because he has delivered a supreme teaching once one may condition oneself to accept everything that he says in the aftermath of that. And thus one may abandon critical thinking, become completely irrational and go astray.
In my case e.g. I may have adopted "strange tibetan beliefs" that are not based on the Buddha's teachings (and the Buddha even warns against some of these) and I may have become a "superstitious" person.

Kind regards

[gregkavarnos]

So the thread Finding and leaving the teacher actually was inspired by this experience of mine.

In order to receive benefit, one has to find its source. Once benefit has been received the source of benefit should be left.

As soon as you have received benefit from a teacher, immediately leave him.

Never settle down.

Because if one starts to cling to "teacher" simply because he has delivered a supreme teaching once one may condition oneself to accept everything that he says in the aftermath of that. And thus one may abandon critical thinking, become completely irrational and go astray.
In my case e.g. I may have adopted "strange tibetan beliefs" that are not based on the Buddha's teachings (and the Buddha even warns against some of these) and I may have become a "superstitious" person.

Kind regards

Wow! Quoting himself to support his view to himself and then commenting postively on his own view!

PS Thanks for the Sutta references DN, interesting stuff! I too was under the deluded impression that the Preta rituals were purely of Tibetan origin.

[ground]

So the thread Finding and leaving the teacher actually was inspired by this experience of mine.

In order to receive benefit, one has to find its source. Once benefit has been received the source of benefit should be left.

As soon as you have received benefit from a teacher, immediately leave him.

Never settle down.

Because if one starts to cling to "teacher" simply because he has delivered a supreme teaching once one may condition oneself to accept everything that he says in the aftermath of that. And thus one may abandon critical thinking, become completely irrational and go astray.
In my case e.g. I may have adopted "strange tibetan beliefs" that are not based on the Buddha's teachings (and the Buddha even warns against some of these) and I may have become a "superstitious" person.

Kind regards

Wow! Quoting himself to support his view to himself and then commenting postively on his own view!

I did reveal the context.

It is up to you do understand, reject or accept. I have nothing to defend.

Once a "teacher" has been left, but true refuge retained one may still listen to the words of "teachers" in a detached and dispassionate manner. How so? Clearly knowing that there is independence and that all there is cognized is just the cognized.

"The ideas cognizable via the intellect that are uncognized by you — that you have never before cognized, that you don't cognize, and that are not to be cognized by you: Do you have any desire or passion or love there?"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Kind regards

[Malcolm]

Wow! Quoting himself to support his view to himself and then commenting postively on his own view! .

Don't be so hard on TMingyur.

He is on a quest for some "original Buddhism".

So for him, the Agamas/Nikayas are definitive. He finds them to be something he can verify for himself with ease. That makes him feel comfortable. There is nothing wrong with this.

I personally think his "Dharma language" language is labored and clumsy, and he thinks I am hopelessly ensconced in intellectual views (he's wrong on that point). But otherwise, he is perfectly harmless.

N

[Gyalpo]

So the thread Finding and leaving the teacher actually was inspired by this experience of mine.

In order to receive benefit, one has to find its source. Once benefit has been received the source of benefit should be left.

As soon as you have received benefit from a teacher, immediately leave him.

Never settle down.

Because if one starts to cling to "teacher" simply because he has delivered a supreme teaching once one may condition oneself to accept everything that he says in the aftermath of that. And thus one may abandon critical thinking, become completely irrational and go astray.
In my case e.g. I may have adopted "strange tibetan beliefs" that are not based on the Buddha's teachings (and the Buddha even warns against some of these) and I may have become a "superstitious" person.

Kind regards

Interesting! So teacher has responsiblity to give you precious teachings that leads you out of suffering, but you have no responsibility towards him at all, he is just like an milch cow for you. I dont know, if this is very good attitude, but it is up to you.

[adinatha]

Once I experienced a tibetan teacher who gave appealing teachings. Really good.
But then in some other lectures he began talking about ghosts and strange kinds of beings being the cause of this and that negative phenomenon one experiences, somehow blaming some negativity on some external "given" phenomena. That appeared strange to me and somehow not compliant with buddhist teachings and I decided to reject such sort of teachings.
Now this did not lead to rejection of this person as a teacher or rejection of all of his teachings but just to the rejection of the teachings that I found to be the opposite of "conducive".

Now what happend was this: when it came to debating things with other followers of this teacher other followers accused me of not following exactly and all of what this teacher taught. They claimed that if one wanted to follow a teaching of a special teacher one mandatorily has to accept and follow each and every teaching of this teacher.

I let them have their talk but did not bother any further. In this way I could retain the advantages of the conducive teachings without having to subscribe to non-conducive teachings.

Another thing I learned from that is that one should be very cautious when it comes to associating with people.


Kind regards

My teacher always said "take the honey." There are levels of masters. Most are ordinary masters and not sambhogakayas. Tibetan teachers come with tremendous ancient cultural baggage. So... take the honey and leave the rest. But also leave your doubter at home and bring an open mind, because, I promise you, things like ghosts and dakinis are not just cultural baggage. There are six realms of cyclic existence, and when you seriously begin to exit these realms, beings from these places may knock on your retreat door and ask you to stay, sometimes in not such a polite way. And in a very true sense, these are caused by your mind. So...

[Gyalpo]

Anyway, if you are sutta based I recommend you biography of Ajahn Mun, there you will find also his encounters with other realms beings.

http://www.forestdhammabooks.com/index.php?page=View&book=1&file=book/1/html/index.html

[gregkavarnos]

Thank you for the link Gyalpo, that looks like a mega-interesting read!

[ground]

Really interesting how people try to persuade to ideas that do not have any use in the context of liberation. But they may have use in the context of projecting responsibility away from the felt "I" and "mine".



Kind regards

[adinatha]

Really interesting how people try to persuade to ideas that do not have any use in the context of liberation. But they may have use in the context of projecting resposibility away from the felt "I" and "mine".



Kind regards

What do your words have to do with the context of liberation?

[ground]

What do your words have to do with the context of liberation?

If you cannot see I do not want to persuade you to anything.

Kind regards

[adinatha]

What do your words have to do with the context of liberation?

If you cannot see I do not want to persuade you to anything.

Kind regards

No please. Try to pursuade me. I dare you.

[ground]

What do your words have to do with the context of liberation?

If you cannot see I do not want to persuade you to anything.

Kind regards

No please. Try to pursuade me. I dare you.

Don't know to what I should persuade you. But you may try to study the words of the Buddha. If not then not ...

Kind regards

[adinatha]

Don't know to what I should persuade you. But you may try to study the words of the Buddha. If not then not ...

Kind regards

Elvis Presley who? No comprendo. How much of the words of the Buddha have you studied? I'm getting the impression perhaps you haven't read the entire canon and tantras of all three vehicles. If you haven't you may want to hunker down and give it go. It might be quite an eye-opening or perhaps mind-boggling experience.