Cops raid at the Karmapas office

[Karma Yeshe]

H.H. the Dalai Lama has said that the history of Tibet is not one free from problems and disputes. However, Many people that I know tend to have this perceptoion. I am sure that over the years there have been many back room deals and attempts by one group to subvert another. Sad to say, this tends to be the norm for us unenlightened Beings.

I do not think that the current Dalai Lama has any intent to disband or combine any of the schools of Buddhism or to "take over". He has taken steps to update the Buddhist Teachings to bring them in line with modern science and Tech and has taken some fire because he has stated that a certain practice is no longer of benifit. There is no dark force at work, only the normal growing pains that are a part of any shake up.

I have heard from one of the Lama's from my Monistery that the Karmapa is also working on making the Dharma Teachings more accessible to people in the West who often do no have time for long rituals etc, without negating the core meaning and power of the Teaching. So there is a lot of discussion and give and take going on right now that could seem like more than it really is.

There is also discussion underway to re establish the lineage of nuns in Tibet. Unlike the Lineage of lamas that has remained intact, the lineage of Nuns was broken at some point and there is a question of how to deal with this.

A lot is going on , but nothing sinister.

[Dechen Norbu]

Yes, indeed. A lot is going on and there are Lamas doing a great job, East and West. Don't want to look overly pessimistic.
I have the deepest appreciation for HH the Dalai Lama and his decisions. Let there be no mistake about it.
Just one thing though. When you say "He has taken steps to update the Buddhist Teachings to bring them in line with modern science and Tech", I'm not sure (I quite doubt it) that such is the purpose of Mind and Life meetings, for instance. I can see science gaining from contacting Dharma, but because of the nature of Buddhadharma, I only see benefit to Dharma if we refer to the development of new skillful means of communicating it to beings who live in a civilization intoxicated by the metaphysical paradigms of modern science, most without even being aware of such situation. It's not as if science will change the core of Buddhadharma (although in the long run the interchange may lead to a paradigm leap in science), as much as a new language may develop to satisfy specific needs of beings living in our modern society.
I was going to say back to topic, but I guess there's not much point in doing so...

[Karma Yeshe]

I think that part of the purpuse of the Mind & Life meetings is to show the people of Tibet, many of whom live in poor areas, the benifits of the modern world. I suspect that it can be a bit overwelming at times for people that have not had exposure to many modern inventions to feel comfterble in there use.

I do agree that the Dharma Teachings in and of themself will not change, but it is very good that western science has been able to show the benifuts of the Teachings.

[Dechen Norbu]

I think that part of the purpuse of the Mind & Life meetings is to show the people of Tibet, many of whom live in poor areas, the benifits of the modern world. I suspect that it can be a bit overwelming at times for people that have not had exposure to many modern inventions to feel comfterble in there use.

I do agree that the Dharma Teachings in and of themself will not change, but it is very good that western science has been able to show the benifuts of the Teachings.

My take is that it will be us Westerners and not so much Tibetans who will benefit from such meetings, but you make a valid point.

[Mr. G]

Karmapa denies Chinese 'spy' tag

NEW DELHI — The Karmapa Lama, one of Tibet's top Buddhist monks and widely seen as a potential spiritual successor to the Dalai Lama, spoke out Monday against allegations that he was a Chinese spy.

"Let me categorically state that I am not a Chinese spy, agent or plant in India," the 26-year-old Karmapa, who fled Tibet in 1999 at the age of 14, told reporters in New Delhi in his first comments on the issue.

Earlier this year, the Indian media, quoting unnamed security sources, reported concerns the Karmapa Lama could be a Chinese stooge sent to India to set up pro-Chinese monasteries.

Read More Here...

[kalden yungdrung]

Tashi delek,

Did the whole story end or is the case still running for the court?
Is it also known by whom the whole story became public, inside the Indian media?

For me is this money all meant in the form of give donations which the Dalai Lama also gets, so a normal Tibetan custom and i do not like here this stupid Indian accusation towards the address of H.H. the 17 th Karmapa. He is a very high ranked Bodhisattva and without any blame. But that is what we allready knew.

I hope that this raid will not influence the other Traditions, e.g. with the same accusations or maybe different ones....

Best wishes
KY

[freethinker108]

No role for the Karmapa
The Dalai Lama has acted shrewdly in giving up his political position and removing the need for a regency

Mary Finnigan
guardian.co.uk, Thursday 26 May 2011 16.31 BST

More than 400 delegates from 20 countries met this week in the Indian Himalayas to implement changes that will have a profound effect on the worldwide Tibetan diaspora. If ratified by the parliament-in-exile, the withdrawal of five clauses in the Tibetan constitution will abolish the Council of Regency that has been in place for 370 years.

Recently, the Dalai Lama announced that he was giving up his political position and would in future concentrate on his spiritual and humanitarian responsibilities. This decision prompted the meeting in India – which aims to complete the transition from theocratic rule to democracy. With the Dalai Lama no longer a temporal leader, the need for a regency is eliminated.

It also means that the 26-year-old 17th Karmapa, Urgyen Trinley Dorje, will not now be become a regent – despite the fact that he has been groomed for this role since his dramatic escape from Tibet in 2000. Urgyen Trinley was confirmed as the 17th Karmapa by both the Chinese authorities and the Dalai Lama. On his arrival in India he went straight to the Dalai Lama's headquarters and has been living close by ever since. In 2008 the Dalai Lama was filmed telling the Karmapa and Ling Rinpoche, another young senior lama, that they would inherit his responsibilities when he died. "You will be the ones to continue my work," he said.

It now seems that this work will be confined to spiritual matters connected with the stewardship of Tibetan Buddhism, which has attracted tens of thousands of converts around the world during the past 30 years. According to Arnaud Dotezac – a visiting professor at Geneva University – the abolition of the regency takes the sting out of a controversial issue. The Karmapa is the head of the Kagyupas – a sect of Tibetan Buddhism that was in power until violently suppressed in the 17th century and replaced by the Gelugpa Dalai Lamas.

"It was a bloodbath," Dotezac says. "Thousands of people were killed, Kagyu monasteries were forced to convert into Gelugpas and the idea of Kagyus being friends with Gelugs was unthinkable."

Dotezac also believes that a financial scandal that erupted in the Karmapa's monastery in January tarnished his reputation to a degree that he was no longer seen as acceptable as a regent.

"Everything changed after that," he says. "The process of decoupling religion from politics accelerated. I think by renouncing his political role the Dalai Lama is preparing the ground for his return to Tibet. He has stated his wish to go back and to die there."

In pre-Chinese Tibet, regents took control after the death of a Dalai Lama and ostensibly for an interim period during the childhood of his reincarnation. In reality, regents were immensely powerful at all times and several young Dalai Lamas died in suspicious circumstances. The present (14th) Dalai Lama may have escaped the possibility of this fate because he was forced into exile in 1959.

Establishing Urgyen Trinley Dorje as a purely spiritual leader sidelines the political ramifications of more than one controversial issue that has emerged since he was recognised as the 17th Karmapa in 1992.

Two years later Trinley Thaye Dorje escaped from Tibet with his family and was formally enthroned as the 17th Karmapa, after being recognised by the senior Kagyu lama Shamar Rinpoche. This means that there are two Karmapas. Some senior lamas accept this status quo, other factions insist that their Karmapa is the only genuine one.



There are also persistent claims that Urgyen Trinley is a Chinese plant and that his escape could not have happened without agreement from the Chinese authorities in Tibet.

"This is a conspiracy theory" says Robbie Barnett, director of modern tibetan studies at Columbia University. "There is no credible explanation for the suggestion that it was in China's interests for the Karmapa to escape. Everything points in the opposite direction – it was a huge diplomatic blow and a big humiliation for the Chinese to see their Karmapa flee to India."

Robbie Barnett points out that Urgyen Trinley could have escaped without help from Chinese officials. "At that time," he says, "thousands of Tibetans were escaping to Nepal every year without being caught. In addition, Urgyen Trinley had resources and a support team to help him. They took a remote route not often used by refugees escaping on foot and his driver knew where he should get out of the car and walk to avoid check points."

To most of us born and brought up in western democracies Tibetan politics seem like a hangover from the Dark Ages. But now the Dalai Lama is launching his people into the 21st century, moving towards a future Dalai Lama being approved by an elected government, headed by an elected prime minister. He has neutralised controversies and in giving up his political status he has demonstrated a high level of political skill.

[username]

This delegation of petty politics to ministers is a good move. In fact all is good and ultimately Gyalwa Karmapa Orgyen Tinley Dorje will be a great Buddha king in Tibet after his glorious guru Kundun the 14th Dalai Lama returns to Potala if things go auspiciously. And in his next life, after a very long current one, the Karmapa will be even a greater king in Tibet and Southern China. Om Mani Padme Hung Hri.
Karmapa Chenno

karmapa16&17.jpg (486.51 KiB) Viewed 707 times

[Willy]

Want to add some usefull informations which is known by us allready , i guess.
It is written by a French reporter Cluade Arpiand has an objective point of view like it should be.

That is a useful and unbiased article, only one point is not 100% valid.

In the meantime, after conducting the necessary tests, the Dalai Lama gave his seal of approval to Ugyen Trinley Dorje, the boy found by Situ.

There are no "necessary tests" that HH the Dalai Lama could conduct in order to ascertain which of the candidates is the suitable one because choosing the "correct" Karmapa is not, and never has been, a decision to be made by HHDL.

The problem started with a misunderstanding. Situ Rinpoche sent a fax to the Dalai Lama stating the regents found the Karmapa. What HH Situpa didn't say, was that Shamarpa saw a problem with the letter (as well as a few others) and wanted to wait for more information.

HHDL said something to the effect of congrats and you have my blessing. After the conflict came out publicly, HHDL found himself in an awkward position, but could not go back on his word. It was never meant to be a recognition though. Historically that wouldn't make any sense.

Here's an update on the situation on Ugyen Trinely - which pretty much tells us nothing new:
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_hp ... ed_1632570

[Willy]

Yes, indeed. A lot is going on and there are Lamas doing a great job, East and West. Don't want to look overly pessimistic.
I have the deepest appreciation for HH the Dalai Lama and his decisions. Let there be no mistake about it.
Just one thing though. When you say "He has taken steps to update the Buddhist Teachings to bring them in line with modern science and Tech", I'm not sure (I quite doubt it) that such is the purpose of Mind and Life meetings, for instance. I can see science gaining from contacting Dharma, but because of the nature of Buddhadharma, I only see benefit to Dharma if we refer to the development of new skillful means of communicating it to beings who live in a civilization intoxicated by the metaphysical paradigms of modern science, most without even being aware of such situation. It's not as if science will change the core of Buddhadharma (although in the long run the interchange may lead to a paradigm leap in science), as much as a new language may develop to satisfy specific needs of beings living in our modern society.
I was going to say back to topic, but I guess there's not much point in doing so...

Agree- and well said: The Buddhists can show the scientists which trees to look up - which one's bear fruit, and which one's are a waste of time. The scientists can confirm the age old teachings - and possibly give new angles to approach the teachings; but it's hard to imagine the need for modifications.

[Adamantine]

HHDL said something to the effect of congrats and you have my blessing. After the conflict came out publicly, HHDL found himself in an awkward position, but could not go back on his word. It was never meant to be a recognition though. Historically that wouldn't make any sense.

You make HHDL sound like a fumbling old man... I believe him to be closer to a living Buddha. I doubt he would have just said congrats without discerning any signs of his own. And in a film I saw HH apparently had dreams related to the discovery of the reincarnation and what he saw in his dreams matched the actual landscape and situation surrounding the place of birth and discovery of the Karmapa he has approved and helped train. Although HH traditionally does not recognize Karmapas, as you know, in the current precarious situation of Tibet-in-exile many Lamas from all 4 schools consult with HH about important recognitions, because they trust in his wisdom-mind. I really don't believe HH would care about going-back-on-his-word if the consequence was the actual Karmapa not being properly recognized. That is an absurd accusation! That paints a picture of him performing a grossly negative unconscionable action merely out of pride, without thought of the consequence for countless sentient beings. Is that really how you see HHDL? That is sad.

I say this out of pure faith in HHDL. I am not of the Karma Kagyu lineage, so I have no horse in this race so to speak.

[Willy]

HHDL said something to the effect of congrats and you have my blessing. After the conflict came out publicly, HHDL found himself in an awkward position, but could not go back on his word. It was never meant to be a recognition though. Historically that wouldn't make any sense.

You make HHDL sound like a fumbling old man... I believe him to be closer to a living Buddha. I doubt he would have just said congrats without discerning any signs of his own. And in a film I saw HH apparently had dreams related to the discovery of the reincarnation and what he saw in his dreams matched the actual landscape and situation surrounding the place of birth and discovery of the Karmapa he has approved and helped train. Although HH traditionally does not recognize Karmapas, as you know, in the current precarious situation of Tibet-in-exile many Lamas from all 4 schools consult with HH about important recognitions, because they trust in his wisdom-mind. I really don't believe HH would care about going-back-on-his-word if the consequence was the actual Karmapa not being properly recognized. That is an absurd accusation! That paints a picture of him performing a grossly negative unconscionable action merely out of pride, without thought of the consequence for countless sentient beings. Is that really how you see HHDL? That is sad.

I say this out of pure faith in HHDL. I am not of the Karma Kagyu lineage, so I have no horse in this race so to speak.

I'm attaching a link to a video of HH Karmapa speaking frankly about having limited capacity, getting tired etc. Not being a living Buddha, but a human. He says it's difficult to deal with people's expectations of him. His words, not mine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfvNZk36A54

Buddhism has taught me to think for myself, empowered me to be a positive influence in the world, and I strive for worldly happiness on the way to enlightenment. No place for faith in that. I don't have faith in any of my teachers - only confidence.

Now that I've had the chance to defended myself - let's talk about HHDL.

Yes, HHDL is a bodhisattva, but he is also a human, and none of my teachers claim to be faultless, including the HHDL.

I prefer they keep their faults out in the open and not lock them behind doors, but that's not always possible. It's an assumption on your part to say he would have to be proud or have strong motivations to not go back on his word. I see it more like, a small piece of information, spiraling into a larger one. Because of people's expectations, he has to act very skillfully. The moves he makes are like a giant boat which turns slowly in the water. Skillfully, but not quickly.

In HHDL's case, if he were to say, "I made a mistake" you'd have a few thousand Tibetans jumping out of windows (and looks like you would too). He simply can't say that.

This may be a lineage distinction. You're not the first Gelug to hold this kind of view for their lineage holders.

[Adamantine]

I'm attaching a link to a video of HH Karmapa speaking frankly about having limited capacity, getting tired etc. Not being a living Buddha, but a human. He says it's difficult to deal with people's expectations of him. His words, not mine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfvNZk36A54

I didn't say HHDL was a living Buddha, I said closer to that than a fumbling old man. However, and whatever HH Karmapa says, if he is your tantric Guru, than it is your training to see whatever he does or says that creates the image of "limited human" as merely an extension of compassion, to enable us to relate better to him...not wavering from the perception he is a Buddha. This is more or less that essence of some passages of Patrul Rinpoche's WOMPT.

No place for faith in that. I don't have faith in any of my teachers

Well we clearly have different teachers and a vastly different understanding. I have faith in my Gurus.

Yes, HHDL is a bodhisattva, but he is also a human, and none of my teachers claim to be faultless, including the HHDL.

HHDL always chooses to express humility, and we see HH Karmapa following this tendency. This is a magnetizing quality, for the general public. I doubt HHDL acts the same way towards his close disciples, and I doubt they see him as an ordinary human.

It's an assumption on your part to say he would have to be proud or have strong motivations to not go back on his word. I see it more like, a small piece of information, spiraling into a larger one. Because of people's expectations, he has to act very skillfully.

You think HHDL's "skillfulness" is deceiving vast numbers of people so they waste their precious human rebirth following a false teacher? You sure have a bizarre outlook, both of the idea of skillfulness and HHDL.

In HHDL's case, if he were to say, "I made a mistake" you'd have a few thousand Tibetans jumping out of windows

Clearly, you already pointed out HHDL doesn't claim to be faultless, and often expresses when he is at fault. He even admitted that he had wrongly propitiated what he has called "a spirit of the dark forces" during his early adult life, before he realized it was a harmful practice. This gave him A LOT of flak, and still does, it would have been easier if he said nothing on a personal level. But he clearly has more interest in the greater good than "appearing faultless". And no Tibetans jumped out of windows.

(and looks like you would too).

that's ridiculous.

He simply can't say that.

He certainly could, and would, but didn't because he doesn't believe he is wrong.

This may be a lineage distinction. You're not the first Gelug to hold this kind of view for their lineage holders.

Wrong again.
I am not a Gelug. Although HHDL is one of my Gurus. I am primarily Nyingma, although I have some Kagyu and Ka-Nying teachers as well.

You simply are speaking some fancy nonsense. I am sure you can do better!

[gregkavarnos]

[quote="Adamantine"]This gave him A LOT of flak, and still does, it would have been easier if he said nothing on a personal level. But he clearly has more interest in the greater good than "appearing faultless". And no Tibetans jumped out of windows. [quote]Jumped out of windows, pushed out of their communties, it's all a matter of semantics really.

Regarding the issue which is the topic of this thread:

For the record (for those that don't know) I am a Karma Kagyu practitioner and happen to be in the mandala of the Karmapa Thaye Trinley Dorje. But even from this angle it is clear that the decision by HHDL was motivated just as much by politics as it was by spirtual matters. It was definitely a smart move by HHDL to choose the candidate that has been ratified by the Chinese government as well. The Chinese Government will not be able to question his authority (which they can do with all tulku, except for a few that they have chosen, right now). If the Karmapa Orgyen trinley Dorje gets official recognition from the Indian Government (via the judicial system) as well, then he will be a strong player in the game for Tibetan independence/autonomy .

The questions we must ask ourselves though is: are we Tibetan, or Tibetan Vajrayana Buddhists? Should we be focusing on our struggle for spiritual liberation or on the Tibetan struggle for political liberation? Can we somehow untangle this knot so we do not waste our precious human life?

[Adamantine]

It was definitely a smart move by HHDL to choose the candidate that has been ratified by the Chinese government as well.

That's so silly, at the time when he was consulted no Chinese Govt had ratified anything. You keep spinning your spin but it will never be anything else.

[AlexanderS]

I thought discussion on of the karmapa controversy was somewhat not allowed on these forums, since it's neverending, hurtful to people's practice and doesn't seem to lead to any conclusions. I have my own views on this matter, but I wish there would be some place to discuss it and I wish the kagyu linage did more to resolve this issue and have the 2 candidates meet in person.

[gregkavarnos]

That's so silly, at the time when he was consulted no Chinese Govt had ratified anything. You keep spinning your spin but it will never be anything else.

Really, do you have a source for this? I was under the impression that he had already received official recognition by the Chinese Government. Are you saying that HHDL recognised him BEFORE the Chinese Government? That the Chinese Government "agreed" with HHDL? Now that would be a first!

Actually, after a quick web search it seems that both "parties" recognised him in 1992. So it looks like we are both "spinning our spin". It was the Chinese Governments first official recognition of a tulku http://factsanddetails.com/china.php?it ... id=33#8891 The law regarding official recognition though was not drafted and implemented until 2007 http://tibetanaltar.blogspot.com/2007/0 ... china.html whereas Orgyen Trinley Dorje had already escaped in 1999. Gotta love bureaucracy!

[Willy]

I thought discussion on of the karmapa controversy was somewhat not allowed on these forums, since it's neverending, hurtful to people's practice and doesn't seem to lead to any conclusions. I have my own views on this matter, but I wish there would be some place to discuss it and I wish the kagyu linage did more to resolve this issue and have the 2 candidates meet in person.

Thank you for the comment. I'm new to this forum, and can see why - it hit a nerve.

I still have questions, unrelated to the Karmapa controversy, but a conversation that Adamantine and I started to explore.

This regards high level bodhisattvas showing human fallacy. For the most part, lineage holders stuck to their own neck of the woods, but when they crossed paths it wasn't always friendly.

I am in no way trying to create a set up or an attack. This is a question that has perplexed me, and has for me defined very imperfect teachers.

The 5th Dalia Lama led Tibetan and Mongol soldiers into the Kagyu Encampment to destroy it. Many monks were slaughtered. While the Karmapa was a refugee in the mountains of Bhutan, Kagyu monasteries were forcibly converted to Gelugpa. Teachings of other schools critical of Tsongkhapa and Gelugpa were banned. Even Nyinmga lamas thought to have performed rituals to repel the Mongols were imprisoned.

My questions is this(open to anyone who cares to answer): Was the 5th DL taking into consideration the "consequences for countless sentient beings" when he made these actions? Do you see these outward violent acts by Bodhisattvas as just that - violent? Or do you think HHDL's takeover was in fact "seemingly" violent, but actually beneficial - but we don't have the wisdom to see this? Or is there an other possibility?

[Adamantine]

Tibet was a hard-core land of warlord-tribal kings, that's just the way they rolled. It's not like King Trisong Deutsen and Guru Rinpoche were pacifists either. What if they had been? Would there be any trace of Vajrayana Buddhism left in the world? Maybe a fragment? What if Pelgyi Dorje hadn't slain King Langdarma? As you know, Vajrayana engages in the four activities, one of which is "liberation".

Now, deciding who was absolutely right during the civil war of the 17th cent, is that really useful or possible? The 5th was basically still a kid when all this was going down, under the wing of a merciless mongol warlord. One could point out the 10th Karmapa's omniscience was faulty since he did not simply accept the situation and thus led his forces against a far superior army. If his had been superior there would have been more blood shed on the other side. Do we really need to judge people long dead, who lived in another time, with other concerns that would be almost impossible for us to fully fathom?

If we judged Milarepa for being a mass-murderer then the whole Kagyu lineage would look stained. . .But we are talking about HHDL of NOW, the 14th, his own person with his own qualities. You are implying he would lie about having special dreams that confirmed for him that one candidate was the right incarnation. I don't believe HHDL is primarily a politician, although he plays this role. I believe he is primarily a practitioner, and teacher of the Buddha Dharma, and he would never compromise the Dharma for a political ruse. I feel this way because of taking many long teachings from him, empowerments with him, over the course of many years. A lot of first-hand proximity-- as well as the head of my lineage, Dudjom Rinpoche showing unwarranted respect to HHDL, and in his own speech and writing making it clear how precious he was for all Tibetan Buddhists. You can feel free to join the NKT and Chinese Govt. in projecting negative motivations or corrupt fickle tendencies, even call him a terrorist...but I will not join you any longer in dialogue because I don't want you to get further entwined in karmic fallout from speech so confused.

[Dhondrub]