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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 5:20 pm 
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Astus wrote:
Huseng,

I don't see how the presented interpretation of buddha-nature as only a capacity and a skilful teaching against icchantika views takes into account that tathagatagarbha is said to be inherently complete with the buddha qualities and such and from that view came all the teachings about the possibility of sudden realisation of buddhahood.


There are multiple lines of thought within what is called tathāgatagarbha. The aforementioned treatise does not speak of what you suggest, though other texts certainly might.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 6:50 pm 
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There are, indeed, multiple ways of thinking about the Tathagatagarhba...thus, we have "Buddhist Metaphysics!"

In response to Huseng's lengthy description regarding "causal Buddhood," I offer the following, again from 3rd Karmapa's Aspiration Of Mahamudra:
Quote:
The ground of purification is the mind itself,
indivisible cognitive clarity and emptiness.
That which purifies is the great vajra yoga of mahamudra.
What is to be purified are the adventitious,
temporary contaminations of confusion,
May the fruit of purification, the stainless dharmakaya, be manifest.


This is likely not the place to rehash the variety of positions...but I just offer this pithy stanza as an alternative, as well as for "proof," if such is still needed, that Buddhists do, in some sense, concern themselves with "First Things," etc.....

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:22 pm 
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Tom wrote:
Namdrol wrote:

When we talk of the base being the two truths are we not doing metaphysics?


Nope, we are talking about the difference between undeluded and deluded cognitions. That's all.
[/quote]

Okay.

It does seems though that even a division based on mind might have some significant ontological implications, for example the two truths being ontologically distinct and even hierarchical. Maybe such implications are superfluous to the Buddhist endeavor, though a lot of fuss seems to be made over them!

- Sorry quote names are wrong - am new to this!


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:53 pm 
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Tom wrote:
Tom wrote:
Namdrol wrote:

When we talk of the base being the two truths are we not doing metaphysics?


Nope, we are talking about the difference between undeluded and deluded cognitions. That's all.


Okay.

It does seems though that even a division based on mind might have some significant ontological implications, for example the two truths being ontologically distinct and even hierarchical. Maybe such implications are superfluous to the Buddhist endeavor, though a lot of fuss seems to be made over them!

- Sorry quote names are wrong - am new to this![/quote]


The two truths are not ontologically distinct because emptiness if not a form of being, and appearances are not either.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 3:34 am 
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All talks are metaphysical until we practice.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:16 am 
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http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Quote:
"I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Now at that time the Blessed One was instructing urging, rousing, and encouraging the monks with Dhamma-talk concerned with Unbinding. The monks — receptive, attentive, focusing their entire awareness, lending ear — listened to the Dhamma.

Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:

There is, monks, an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that emancipation from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, emancipation from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned."


There is...

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Quote:
Where do water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing?
Where are long & short,
coarse & fine,
fair & foul,
name & form
brought to an end?
"'And the answer to that is:


Consciousness without feature,
without end,
luminous all around:

Here water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing.
Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
With the cessation of [the activity of] consciousness
each is here brought to an end.'"


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Quote:
"'Consciousness without surface,
endless, radiant all around,


has not been experienced through the earthness of earth ... the liquidity of liquid ... the fieriness of fire ... the windiness of wind ... the allness of the all.'


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Quote:
"Luminous, monks, is the mind..."


...svabhaava.

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