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 Post subject: Golden Dawn and Buddhism
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:16 pm 
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Jikan wrote:
...I could guess (Golden Dawn? a John Dee revival movement?) but I'd rather not make unwarranted assumptions.
Golden Dawn is the name of the main Neo-Nazi organisation here in Greece.

Bad choice of title for both groups I reckon!

Imagine some limp druidic new age Englishman rockin' into a Golden Dawn meeting here in Greece looking for free global love, some ganja and a tarot reading and suddenly being confronted by a bunch of super-aggro neo-Nazi shinheads! It would be really funny if it wasn't so painful. Mind you neo-Nazis here in Greece are really into that whole pagan Olympian Gods schtick, unless they are like GREEK ultra-Orthodox Christians. Schizophrenia abounds!
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:25 pm 
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I don't know much about Golden Dawn demographically or doctrinally except what can be inferred from very old school historical reconstruction as in Frances Yates (not taken too seriously these days). So as I said, I don't know much about it at all.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:07 pm 
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Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn is a valid appearance of the turning of the Dharma Wheel

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:16 pm 
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LOL

This has nothing to do with the Golden Dawn.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:46 pm 
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Rael wrote:
Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn is a valid appearance of the turning of the Dharma Wheel


Not even close. :?

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:58 pm 
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mr. gordo wrote:
Rael wrote:
Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn is a valid appearance of the turning of the Dharma Wheel


Not even close. :?


Ha....


Everything religious or philosophical bent that effects the paradigm of society is due to the turning of the Dharma Wheel....

Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn appeared at a time when the west was going through an amazing change....The roman Catholic church no longer had a hold on thinking and was not longer in power to stifle thought

one sec.....

care to explain why it is not even close mr.gordo

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:15 pm 
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Rael wrote:
Ha....

Everything religious or philosophical bent that effects the paradigm of society is due to the turning of the Dharma Wheel....


Where in Buddhist literature are you deriving this theory from? By your definition, Nazism and Scientology are valid appearances of the turning of the Dharma Wheel. Really it sounds like Neo-advaitan gobbledy gook.

Quote:
care to explain why it is not even close mr.gordo


Because there are no teachings of dependent origination in the Golden Dawn for one....among a lot of other Buddhist teachings.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:33 pm 
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mr. gordo wrote:
Rael wrote:
Ha....

Everything religious or philosophical bent that effects the paradigm of society is due to the turning of the Dharma Wheel....


Where in Buddhist literature are you deriving this theory from? By your definition, Nazism and Scientology are valid appearances of the turning of the Dharma Wheel. Really it sounds like Neo-advaitan gobbledy gook.

Quote:
care to explain why it is not even close mr.gordo


Because there are no teachings of dependent origination in the Golden Dawn for one....among a lot of other Buddhist teachings.



maybe your interpretation of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn is just not close....

bringing in nazism shows a complete misunderstanding of the Turning of the Dharma Wheel.....

I was taught ,that teachings that appear completely unBuddhist like such as God Creationist Religions are here due to the turning of the Dharma Wheel...
I realize the narrow minded would beg to differ and start to scoff....but thats their problem not mine....

mine is a much larger view brought about by a few teachers....A Geshe and a Tulklu who when visiting the Dalai Lama he fondly referred to as a pair of shoes...


why i said Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn are a result of the turning of the Dharma Wheel ...they laid the foundations for advanced thought philosophically and prepared the way for the acceptance of Buddhist teaching in the west...long before the masses flocked to learn about it....

seeds mr.gordo....and changing the paradigms of entire cultures.....

it did not happen overnight that Buddhist Dharma became part and parcel to the western culture.....nor Eastern culture for that matter.....long before the Buddha certain teachings were put in place to prepare the culture for the arrival of Buddhism.....

you can't expect humans just to enter university without a grounding...base forms of thought need to be eradicated and they need to be there in the first place for the teachings to be able to be taught.....enmasse......

but you may scoff....

the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn has great value...they knew certain things that only the most daring would care to understand in a time of great darkness...and fear of such teachings outside the Church.....


your refute was pretty anger filled by the way.....it came across in type quite loud.....

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:50 pm 
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Golden Dawn is a crappy Modern British invention.


http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Magick-Twe ... addOneStar


Anyway, I don't understand how this became a Golden Dawn thread.

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Last edited by Enochian on Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:52 pm 
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Enochian wrote:
LOL

This has nothing to do with the Golden Dawn.


This was my error earlier in the thread, back when I was asking for more information. Don't know if I'm responsible for the ensuing threadjacking...

:focus:

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:52 pm 
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I ask you again, where in Buddhist literature are you deriving this theory of yours from?

Quote:
your refute was pretty anger filled by the way.....it came across in type quite loud.....


LOL. What? You must possess a form of textual clairvoyance that needs work then.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:59 pm 
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mr. gordo wrote:
I ask you again, where in Buddhist literature are you deriving this theory of yours from?

Quote:
your refute was pretty anger filled by the way.....it came across in type quite loud.....


LOL. What? You must possess a form of textual clairvoyance that needs work then.


I've asked before about the Dharma Wheel and it's turning and where it derived from...many times and never got one....

all i have are teachings given to me orally from my Gurus....and clearly stated them....

like i said you may not agree but scoffing and lame comparativeness only come off mean.

it's just the way you tramped my view is all..adding nazism and scientology and claiming this is the same as my view is not very tactful...it seems anger filled....for it is nonsensical....

i loathe the anger ...and dishonesty that abounds online....

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:20 pm 
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Enochian wrote:
Golden Dawn is a crappy Modern British invention.
http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Magick-Twe ... addOneStar


Is anyone familiar with the texts Enochian cites as recommended in the review linked above?

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If you want to become a real adept I have some books for you to read. Please read Key of Solomon by Joseph Peterson, Lesser Key of Solomon by Joseph Peterson, Enochian Vision Magick by Lon Milo Duquette, Arbatel by Jospeh Peterson, Greek Magical papyri (there are a couple of books on this), and lastly Book of Abramelin: A New Translation by Abraham von Worms, edited by Georg Dehn, translated by Steven Guth.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:23 pm 
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So, Rael...let me get this straight...

Your teachers specifically told you that EVERY religious organization was the "turning of the Dharma Wheel?" Or did they specifically say that the Order of the Golden Dawn was a "turning?"

Personally, I don't think "they" laid the foundations for advanced philosophical thought at all. I think it is a fallacy, quite frankly, to say that Golden Dawn helped pave the way for Buddhism in Western Society. For some individuals, this may be the case...but not for "Western Culture." This is revisionist intellectual history. Same thing with Theosophy...it may have been an "entryway" for some to come into contact with the BuddhaDharma, but by no means did it "prepare a culture" for Buddhism, or anything like that....In fact, at this point, I guarantee that there are more Western Buddhists affiliated with true, Asian-originated, Dharma lineages than have even heard about Theosophy or the Golden Dawn.

Regarding "God-oriented religions," I think it is disrespectful to those who subscribe to any monotheist tradition to say that their traditions are somehow just "preparation" for BuddhaDharma. I also don't think it's true.

I will tell you frankly that I believe that whatever it was your teachers said was filtered through your unique set of mental habits, assumptions, etc.--and that you most likely misunderstood the gist of what they were saying. But that's just me, speaking from my own set of mental habits and assumptions, --you may consider it rationally, or you may react to it emotionally, but I don't mean to upset you.....

Because things are similar does not mean they are the same.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:31 am 
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soooo no one is stating where the term Turning of the Dharma Wheel by the Buddha comes from Let alone what it really implies...

And then mr.gordo asks for


mr. gordo wrote:
I ask you again, where in Buddhist literature are you deriving this theory of yours from?

.




conebeckham wrote:
So, Rael...let me get this straight...

Your teachers specifically told you that EVERY religious organization was the "turning of the Dharma Wheel?" Or did they specifically say that the Order of the Golden Dawn was a "turning?"

Personally, I don't think "they" laid the foundations for advanced philosophical thought at all. I think it is a fallacy, quite frankly, to say that Golden Dawn helped pave the way for Buddhism in Western Society. For some individuals, this may be the case...but not for "Western Culture." This is revisionist intellectual history. Same thing with Theosophy...it may have been an "entryway" for some to come into contact with the BuddhaDharma, but by no means did it "prepare a culture" for Buddhism, or anything like that....In fact, at this point, I guarantee that there are more Western Buddhists affiliated with true, Asian-originated, Dharma lineages than have even heard about Theosophy or the Golden Dawn.

Regarding "God-oriented religions," I think it is disrespectful to those who subscribe to any monotheist tradition to say that their traditions are somehow just "preparation" for BuddhaDharma. I also don't think it's true.

I will tell you frankly that I believe that whatever it was your teachers said was filtered through your unique set of mental habits, assumptions, etc.--and that you most likely misunderstood the gist of what they were saying. But that's just me, speaking from my own set of mental habits and assumptions, --you may consider it rationally, or you may react to it emotionally, but I don't mean to upset you.....

Because things are similar does not mean they are the same.



Quote:
Your teachers specifically told you that EVERY religious organization was the "turning of the Dharma Wheel?" Or did they specifically say that the Order of the Golden Dawn was a "turning?"
I enjoy sarcasm as much as the next guy...but get real.....

I've stated what they said...and how they said it many times over in this place....

if you want to be traditional to the point of being inanely anal about it....thats your prerogative...
I was taught well and can think for myself....

if you don't get what i am saying thats your problem not mine.
Quote:
Personally, I don't think "they" laid the foundations for advanced philosophical thought at all.


snickers....you are narrow minded and you want the same of others....
Quote:
I think it is a fallacy, quite frankly, to say that Golden Dawn helped pave the way for Buddhism in Western Society. For some individuals, this may be the case...but not for "Western Culture." This is revisionist intellectual history.


I'm not revising history to suit anything...i'm looking at an advanced group of metaphysical practitioners in a time very few dared to even grapple with these concepts...These people inspired generations......they are part and parcel to a lot of the introduction of Eastern thought to the modern western paradigms that evovled slowly during the 20th century....


you know there was a time in the 50's /60's when it was very difficult to find reading material let alone buddhist teachers here in the west....and the accepted flood during the early 70's and extremly widely accepted later part of the 70's ...by the 80's and 90's Buddhist material had become part of the everyday....odd isn't it?

there was a time Buddhism was lumped together with tarot cards and parlour games and such....I realize not for the educated...nor am i referring to the few but always thinking in terms of the whole populace

For Buddhism to spread into a culture as it did....all these things were an intricate part at one time, mixed in with occult sciences and such....you could be possably too young to recall this stuff...and what the real early days of learning about Buddhism was like...and the atmosphere around it

scoff if you wish....scream "where is it written in the sutta and sutras?".....
You know due to the Christian Judaic majik concepts our culture and it's heritage is pretty ****** up philosophically....the devil and god's miracles and all the weirdnesses that go with it

Quote:
Same thing with Theosophy.


I never really felt attracted to the occult but there was a time when there was far more reading material than Buddhist dharma to be had...

and it sounds like a rip from the concept of the turning of the Dharma Wheel....lol
Quote:
it may have been an "entryway" for some to come into contact with the BuddhaDharma, but by no means did it "prepare a culture" for Buddhism, or anything like that....In fact, at this point, I guarantee that there are more Western Buddhists affiliated with true, Asian-originated, Dharma lineages than have even heard about Theosophy or the Golden Dawn.


this is not an insult...but how old are you...or better still how old were you when you started to study buddhism....

i ask for the same reasons I've been claiming that these people who had a great deal of influence in the modernizing of philosophical thinking in the west were influenced by the Buddha .....in order to pave the way....

thats my view and how i was taught....not specifically the golden Dawn...and the golden Dawn i refer to is not this nazi ripp off sounding Greek thing....
Quote:
Regarding "God-oriented religions," I think it is disrespectful to those who subscribe to any monotheist tradition to say that their traditions are somehow just "preparation" for BuddhaDharma. I also don't think it's true.


As i stated Geshe La stated that Christianity was a turning of the Dharma Wheel for it induced love and proper living ...
never did he say it paved the way in that case but was a direct result of the turning of the Dharma Wheel to help liberate beings by helping them to live properly and create good karma....

your worried it would upset the jesus freaks that jesus was not the son of god but an instrument of the Buddha?

man you need some cranking open....open up to the reality of the Dharma and it's workings
Quote:
I will tell you frankly that I believe that whatever it was your teachers said was filtered through your unique set of mental habits, assumptions, etc.--and that you most likely misunderstood the gist of what they were saying. But that's just me, speaking from my own set of mental habits and assumptions, --you may consider it rationally, or you may react to it emotionally, but I don't mean to upset you.....


i was trained quite well and can think for myself...
Quote:
Because things are similar does not mean they are the same


care to share what you imply here....

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Last edited by purple rose on Thu Apr 21, 2011 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:52 am 
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The reason this happened:
Quote:
there was a time Buddhism was lumped together with tarot cards and parlour games and such....
was due to organisations like the thoesophical society and golden dawn.
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:05 am 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
The reason this happened:
Quote:
there was a time Buddhism was lumped together with tarot cards and parlour games and such....
was due to organisations like the thoesophical society and golden dawn.
:namaste:


Yes...true...do i deny the conventionalist aspect....

but why....

if you can only see Buddhism from the turning of the Dharma Wheel....you don't get it....

thats the inanely upside down snobbery of the situation...

you don't get what it implies so you scoff...or make logical assumptions and feel all comfy...

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:06 am 
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Quote:
soooo no one is stating where the term Turning of the Dharma Wheel by the Buddha comes from Let alone what it really implies...

Here's some samples...
Firstly....
Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta and Dharmacakrapravartana Sutram

Secondly...
Quote:
http://cttbusa.org/avatamsaka/avatamsaka40.asp
The Sixth Vow: To Request the Turning of the Dharma Wheel
“Moreover, Good Man, to request the turning of the Dharma Wheel is explained like this:
Within each and every fine mote of dust in the Buddhalands throughout the ten directions and the three periods of time, throughout the Dharma Realm and the realm of empty space, there are vast and great Buddhalands as many as fine motes of dust in ineffably ineffable Buddhalands. In each and every land, in thought after thought, there are all Buddhas accomplishing equal and right enlightenment, their number as many as fine motes of dust in ineffably ineffable Buddhalands. A sea-like assembly of Bodhisattvas circumambulates each Buddha. Using all manner of skillful means of body, mouth, and mind, I sincerely and diligently request that they turn the wonderful Dharma Wheel.

“So it is that even if the realm of empty space is exhausted, the realms of living beings are exhausted, the karma of living beings is exhausted, and the afflictions of living beings are exhausted, my request that all Buddhas turn the proper Dharma Wheel is without end. It continues in thought after thought without cease. My body, mouth, and mind never weary of these deeds.

Before the lamps of the worlds of the ten directions,
Those who first accomplished Bodhi,
I now request and beseech them all
To turn the foremost, wondrous Dharma Wheel.


Thirdly...
Samdhinirmocana Sutra
Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandhinirmocana_Sutra
Within the sūtra, the Buddha describes the teaching that he is presenting as part of the Third Turning of the Wheel of Dharma[8].
As such, the Sūtra is intended to clarify confusing or contradictory elements of earlier teachings, presenting a new teaching that resolves earlier inconsistencies.[7] The Sūtra affirms that the earlier turnings of the wheel—the teachings of the Śrāvaka Vehicle (Śrāvakayāna) and the emptiness (Śūnyatā) doctrine adopted by the Mādhyamaka -- represented authentic teachings, but indicates that they were flawed because they required interpretation.[8] The teachings of the Saṃdhinirmocana Sūtra, on the other hand, require no interpretation and can be read literally according to the discourse delivered by the Buddha within the te.xt.[8] This reflects an ancient division in Buddhist hermeneutics, a topic to which the sūtra devotes an entire chapter.[7][8]


Fourthly...
Three Turnings of the Wheel of the Dharma
Classification of Teaching

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 11:57 am 
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TS and GD were definitely NOT the first Westerners to introduce Buddhism to the West nor the first Westerners to take refuge. The first Westerners to take refuge and even become Buddhist monastics were the descendants of Alexander the Greats army; who officially embraced Buddhism under King Menander I, as a state religion, around 155-130BCE. Thats almost 2000 years before the TS and GD.

Are people aware of the fact that there was a stupa in (then) Constantinople that was destroyed by decree of the Byzantine Emperor Justinian I somewhere between 527-565AD? That means that Buddhism was officially condemned (by a Christian emperor) as a religion 1300 years before TS and GD. That also means that Buddhism was alive and kicking in Europe at least until it was forced to go underground by Justinian.

Now this is not to say that TS and GD did not help revive interest in Buddhism over the past 150 years, but it was that: a revival.

Let us also not forget the presence of ethnic groups practicing Buddhism in the West before GD and TS. What this means is that Buddhism was here but we just closed our eyes to it.
:namaste:

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Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:00 pm 
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Attachment:
300px-MenanderChakra.jpg
300px-MenanderChakra.jpg [ 18.59 KiB | Viewed 487 times ]

Bronze coin of Menander I with a Buddhist eight-spoked wheel.
Obverse side: Greek legend, ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ ΣΩΤΗΡΟΣ ΜΕΝΑΝΔΡΟΥ (BASILEOS SOTEROS MENANDROU) lit. "Of Saviour King Menander" with eight-spoked wheel.
Reverse side: Kharosthi legend MAHARAJA TRATASA MENADRASA "Saviour King Menander", with palm of victory

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