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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 10:38 am 
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Namdrol wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
conebeckham wrote:
TMingyur wishes to avoid "Dharma Language" or the conventional vocabulary in use (here and elsewhere) when discussing the Dharma, because he feels that such language all-too-easily allows for reification.


No. It is about language, terms and terminology, manifesting mere fabrication or not.

However if one assumes that mere fabrication is liberating then it may appear appropriate.

Kind regards



Your use of language has no less danger of manifesting "fabrications" than any other. Your theory of "correlates" does not save you from this.


Language necessarily implies fabrication. However within language there are terms that correspond to direct experience and there are terms that do not correspond at all.

(I thought for a change I apply the term "correspond" to counter your fixation on "correlate".)

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 12:45 pm 
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TMingyur wrote:
Language necessarily implies fabrication. However within language there are terms that correspond to direct experience...
Like the term emptiness (sunyata) for example?

Quote:
...and there are terms that do not correspond at all.
Like the term emptiness (sunyata) for example?
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:32 pm 
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TMingyur wrote:
Language necessarily implies fabrication. However within language there are terms that correspond to direct experience and there are terms that do not correspond at all.


Then it follows, that you, TMigyur, can and should never discuss nirvana, liberation, cessation and detachment, since these cannot serve as an objects of direct perception.

N

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:40 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
Language necessarily implies fabrication. However within language there are terms that correspond to direct experience and there are terms that do not correspond at all.


Then it follows, that you, TMigyur, can and should never discuss nirvana, liberation, cessation and detachment, since these cannot serve as an objects of direct perception.

N


"cannot serve as an objects of direct perception" may be correct in meaning.
However "cessation (of attachment, of obscurations)" (i.e. what is called "nirvana") has a correlate in direct experience, i.e. there is a direct experience that corresponds to the term.



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:02 pm 
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TMingyur wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
Language necessarily implies fabrication. However within language there are terms that correspond to direct experience and there are terms that do not correspond at all.


Then it follows, that you, TMigyur, can and should never discuss nirvana, liberation, cessation and detachment, since these cannot serve as an objects of direct perception.

N


"cannot serve as an objects of direct perception" may be correct in meaning.
However "cessation (of attachment, of obscurations)" (i.e. what is called "nirvana") has a correlate in direct experience, i.e. there is a direct experience that corresponds to the term.



That's the whole point, TMingyur, nirvana cannot be directly perceived, it also cannot be directly experienced (direct perception = direct experience). However, those who have an eternalist view of Nirvana, like the Theravadins and the Sarvastivadins, may assert the opposite.

So now we have discovered that not only are you a substantialist, you are also an eternalist.

N

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:10 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
Namdrol wrote:

Then it follows, that you, TMigyur, can and should never discuss nirvana, liberation, cessation and detachment, since these cannot serve as an objects of direct perception.

N


"cannot serve as an objects of direct perception" may be correct in meaning.
However "cessation (of attachment, of obscurations)" (i.e. what is called "nirvana") has a correlate in direct experience, i.e. there is a direct experience that corresponds to the term.



That's the whole point, TMingyur, nirvana cannot be directly perceived, it also cannot be directly experienced (direct perception = direct experience). However, those who have an eternalist view of Nirvana, like the Theravadins and the Sarvastivadins, may assert the opposite.

So now we have discovered that not only are you a substantialist, you are also an eternalist.

N


Firstly you really have a splendid fantasy, secondly you obviously do read your own mind but not what I have written.
I did not say that nirvana can be directly percieved. What i did say is that there is a correlate of this term "nirvana" in direct experience which is nothing other than cessation of attachment or obscurations.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:16 pm 
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Here we go again!
:ban:
What is the correlate for sunyata (emptiness)?
:namaste:
PS I was editing while TM was posting so I will restore the original post.

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Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:20 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
What is the correlate for sunyata (emptiness)?
:namaste:


What Emptiness of what are you talking about?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:27 pm 
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TMingyur wrote:
Firstly you really have a splendid fantasy, secondly you obviously do read your own mind but not what I have written.
I did not say that nirvana can be directly percieved. What i did say is that there is a correlate of this term "nirvana" in direct experience which is nothing other than cessation of attachment or obscurations.
Kind regards


There is no such thing as an experience of a cessation.



N

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Last edited by Malcolm on Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:25 pm 
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TMingyur wrote:
What i did say is that there is a correlate of this term "nirvana" in direct experience which is nothing other than cessation of attachment or obscurations.
This statement is (oxy)moronic either cessation of attachment or (and?) obscuration is a direct experience or it is a correlate of Nirvana. Why? Because now you are saying that direct experiences are correlates. Are they correlates or are they direct experiences? Is the cessation of attachment and obscuration Nirvana or is Nirvana now something else?

It may be a good idea to think through what you are going to post before you post it

:namaste:

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 4:15 pm 
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Quote:
AN 9.34
Nibbana Sutta: Unbinding
translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Feeding Sanctuary. There he said to the monks, "This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt. There are these five strings of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable via the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing; sounds cognizable via the ear... smells cognizable via the nose... tastes cognizable via the tongue... tactile sensations cognizable via the body — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Whatever pleasure or joy arises in dependence on these five strings of sensuality, that is sensual pleasure.

"Now there is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with sensuality, that is an affliction for him. Just as pain arises as an affliction in a healthy person for his affliction, even so the attention to perceptions dealing with sensuality that beset the monk is an affliction for him. Now, the Blessed One has said that whatever is an affliction is stress. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how Unbinding is pleasant.

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with directed thought, that is an affliction for him...

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with rapture, that is an affliction for him...

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the abandoning of pleasure & stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with equanimity, that is an affliction for him...

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' enters & remains in the dimension of the infinitude of space. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with form, that is an affliction for him...

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of space, [perceiving,] 'Infinite consciousness,' enters & remains in the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with the dimension of the infinitude of space, that is an affliction for him...

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' enters & remains in the dimension of nothingness. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, that is an affliction for him...

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, enters & remains in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with the dimension of nothingness, that is an affliction for him. Now, the Blessed One has said that whatever is an affliction is stress. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how pleasant Unbinding is.

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And, having seen [that] with discernment, his mental fermentations are completely ended. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how Unbinding is pleasant."

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 4:19 pm 
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Quote:
AN 9.42
Pañcala Sutta: Pañcala's Verse
translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi at Ghosita's Park. Then Ven. Udayin went to him and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Ananda, "This has been said by Pañcalacanda the deva's son:

'In a confining place, he found an opening —
the one of extensive wisdom,
the awakened one who awakened to jhana,
the chief bull, withdrawn,
the sage.'

"Now which, my friend, is the confining place? And which opening in the confining place is the Blessed One said to have attained?"

[Ven. Ananda:] "The five strings of sensuality, my friend, are described by the Blessed One as a confining place. Which five? Forms cognizable via the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing; sounds cognizable via the ear... smells cognizable via the nose... tastes cognizable via the tongue... tactile sensations cognizable via the body — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. These five strings of sensuality are described by the Blessed One as a confining place.

"Now there is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Even this much is described by the Blessed One as the attaining of an opening in a confining place, though followed by a sequel. For even there there's a confining place. What is the confining place there? Just that directed thought & evaluation have not ceased. This is the confining place there.

"Then there is the case where a monk, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. Even this much is described by the Blessed One as the attaining of an opening in a confining place, though followed by a sequel. For even there there's a confining place. What is the confining place there? Just that rapture has not ceased. This is the confining place there.

"Then there is the case where a monk, with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' Even this much is described by the Blessed One as the attaining of an opening in a confining place, though followed by a sequel. For even there there's a confining place. What is the confining place there? Just that the pleasure of equanimity has not ceased. This is the confining place there.

"Then there is the case where a monk, with the abandoning of pleasure & stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. Even this much is described by the Blessed One as the attaining of an opening in a confining place, though followed by a sequel. For even there there's a confining place. What is the confining place there? Just that the perception of form has not ceased. This is the confining place there.

"Then there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of perceptions of form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' enters & remains in the dimension of the infinitude of space. Even this much is described by the Blessed One as the attaining of an opening in a confining place, though followed by a sequel. For even there there's a confining place. What is the confining place there? Just that the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of space has not ceased. This is the confining place there.

"Then there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of space, [perceiving,] 'Infinite consciousness,' enters & remains in the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. Even this much is described by the Blessed One as the attaining of an opening in a confining place, though followed by a sequel. For even there there's a confining place. What is the confining place there? Just that the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness has not ceased. This is the confining place there.

"Then there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' enters & remains in the dimension of nothingness. Even this much is described by the Blessed One as the attaining of an opening in a confining place, though followed by a sequel. For even there there's a confining place. What is the confining place there? Just that the perception of the dimension of nothingness has not ceased. This is the confining place there.

"Then there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, enters & remains in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. Even this much is described by the Blessed One as the attaining of an opening in a confining place, though followed by a sequel. For even there there's a confining place. What is the confining place there? Just that the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception has not ceased. This is the confining place there.

"Then there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And, having seen [that] with discernment, his mental fermentations are completely ended. Even this much is described by the Blessed One as the attaining of an opening in a confining place, without a sequel."

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 7:32 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
Firstly you really have a splendid fantasy, secondly you obviously do read your own mind but not what I have written.
I did not say that nirvana can be directly percieved. What i did say is that there is a correlate of this term "nirvana" in direct experience which is nothing other than cessation of attachment or obscurations.
Kind regards


There is no such thing as an experience of a cessation.



N


You are right, a cessation qua cessation is not experienced but there is a direct experience that correlates with the term "cessation".
In the same way there e.g. is a correlate of "attachment".
The concept "this has ceased" of course is a product of thought. "this has ceased" therefore is not directly experienced because it is a synthesis, a fabrication. But that does not negate the correlate of cessation in direct experience.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 7:57 pm 
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If it is correlate then it is not a direct experience. Either it is a direct experience or it is a correlate, it cannot be both.
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 8:04 pm 
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TMingyur wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
Firstly you really have a splendid fantasy, secondly you obviously do read your own mind but not what I have written.
I did not say that nirvana can be directly percieved. What i did say is that there is a correlate of this term "nirvana" in direct experience which is nothing other than cessation of attachment or obscurations.
Kind regards


There is no such thing as an experience of a cessation.



N


You are right, a cessation qua cessation is not experienced but there is a direct experience that correlates with the term "cessation".



No, there is not. There is no direct experience that correlates with term "cessation". Why? Because a correlate of the term "cessation" would be completely unreal. There is no correlate to the term "cessation". When there is cessation or to use your clumsy terminology, the correlate of a cessation, there is not even a non-existence which can predicated of that correlate of a so called cessation.

N

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 8:27 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
You are right, a cessation qua cessation is not experienced but there is a direct experience that correlates with the term "cessation".



No, there is not. There is no direct experience that correlates with term "cessation". Why? Because a correlate of the term "cessation" would be completely unreal. There is no correlate to the term "cessation". When there is cessation or to use your clumsy terminology, the correlate of a cessation, there is not even a non-existence which can predicated of that correlate of a so called cessation.

N


Yes - no - yes - no ...

What do you think how long this might go on?

Interminably.

You simply do not (want to) understand the perspective.

And you are clinging to concepts of "existence" and "non-existence" beyond that. I never had the slightest thought of "existence" or "non-existence" when writing. You are a philosopher. We will always talk at cross purposes since you are having "existence" and "non-existence" in your mind.

It is about the validity of terms, not about "existence" or "non-existence" ... you won't understand.





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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:45 pm 
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TMingyur wrote:
I never had the slightest thought of "existence" or "non-existence" when writing.


Yes, you did. You have to in order to use the verb "is" or as in "I never had the slightest thought" indicating that as you write, you have a thought of "existence" and "non-existence". Also when you write "but there is a direct experience..."

Having a thought of "is" or "is not" is requirement for using any form of the verb "to be".

N

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:49 pm 
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TMingyur wrote:

It is about the validity of terms, not about "existence" or "non-existence" ... you won't understand.



Terms are valid or invalid solely in relation to their efficiency at communicating concepts to another.

Since I don't have a view of either "existence" or "non-existence", your statement is irrelevant to me. You are the one obsessed with "existence" or "non-existence", not me.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:00 am 
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Someone has apparently convinced themselves of something, huh?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:07 am 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
Back to the OP, would it be (or it may be) valid to say that the brain is linked to the functioning of the conditioned mind because it seems to me that all of the experiences and effects reported have to do with the relative/conditioned functions of mind: perception (mind as sense organ fits into this category), thought, speech, imagination, sensation, feeling, emotion, etc...

Enlightenment, realisations, meditative absorption (after the second jhana) etc... are beyond conceptualisation and (maybe) do not rely on the brain? I would though like to see these experiments conducted on experienced meditators (during meditative absorption) before I could draw any valid conclusions (as a trained behavioural psychologist).
:namaste:

As I see it, to have true liberative experience, one must cross at least one of the three gates of liberation. In other words, to be able to have liberative experience, one must be in the state of wishlessness/signlessness/emptiness. Within those states, samsaric conditionings and their influences are absent so that one can be confident that what one experiences is true and not some form of hallucination. As to whether such states are still connected to the brain, if you subscribe to some form of mind-body non-duality/inseparability, then there should be some connection at a more "fundamental" level. Otherwise, I don't think there is any connection of those states with the ordinary conditioned mind.


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