Rainbow Body Misconception

[Malcolm]

What is your idea about what an Arhat is?

Arhats are those who have eradicated all afflictive obscurations, have not necessarily gather the merit and wisdom accumulations needed for full buddhahood.

Bodhisattvas are not arhats until they become full buddhas i.e.tathāgatas, arhats, samyaksambuddhas. And they do not eradicate all afflictive obscurations until the end of the 7th bhumi.

N

[Enochian]

Namdrol,

You agree with the part where he said "So far there is no human who has become Buddha on Earth"???

Or are you simply saying that is the view of sutrayana?

I am saying this is the view of sutrayāna cf. Lanka-avatyara sutra, to paraphrase "The real Buddha attains full awakening in Akanistha, an emanated one attains Buddhahood here".

Gotcha. We are on the same train of thinking now.

This is sort of the entire point of the thread, that common sutra Mahayanists can't achieve Buddhahood on physical earth according to their own teachings.

Thanks for confirming

[LastLegend]

What is your idea about what an Arhat is?

Arhats are those who have eradicated all afflictive obscurations, have not necessarily gather the merit and wisdom accumulations needed for full buddhahood.

Bodhisattvas are not arhats until they become full buddhas i.e.tathāgatas, arhats, samyaksambuddhas. And they do not eradicate all afflictive obscurations until the end of the 7th bhumi.

N

You misread me.
Bodhisattvas are not Arhats but Arhats with vows to help others are Bodhisattvas. The latter is what I said because what a human can achieve on earth is Only at the attainment level of Arhat or equivalence in terms of potentionals to do work. When going to One Dharma Realm (Buddha Realm), Arhat/equivalence of Arhat will become a Bodhisattva with greater potentials to do work. Equivalence of an Arhat for example is someone who has achieved Concentration through Chan, Tantra, or Pure Land. But this individual has made vows to help other sentient beings, and therefore will do the work of Bodhisattva. So this individual will not stay resident in Nirvana like an Arhat without vows. As you can see, In Mahayana there is a relationship between Bodhisaattvas and Buddhas while in Hinayana the relationship seems disconnected because Arhat stays resident in Nirvana.

[Enochian]

According to Vajrayana, no one has ever achieved Buddhahood any place on Earth or any place else, nor will they ever. If one is to say it's attained anywhere, it's Akanistha.

Now this is an embarrassingly wrong statement

Maybe he meant sutrayana

[Josef]

The body of light aka rainbow body is simply the body reverting back to the five lights of wisdom. The sign of this is that at death the body shrinks to a very small size.

Hey Namdrol,
There are varying degrees of this are there not?
I cant really remember without looking it up (and I wouldnt post anything from it publicly anyways) but if I remember correctly at least one version of complete attainment in the Yeshe Lama leaves no trace. Maybe hair and nails or something.

[Mr. G]

I must say though, at this point people need to start giving citations. Otherwise it is just an opinion fest.

[Malcolm]

Namdrol,

You agree with the part where he said "So far there is no human who has become Buddha on Earth"???

Or are you simply saying that is the view of sutrayana?

I am saying this is the view of sutrayāna cf. Lanka-avatyara sutra, to paraphrase "The real Buddha attains full awakening in Akanistha, an emanated one attains Buddhahood here".

Gotcha. We are on the same train of thinking now.

This is sort of the entire point of the thread, that common sutra Mahayanists can't achieve Buddhahood on physical earth according to their own teachings.

Thanks for confirming

Not true of Dzogchen, however.

[Malcolm]

According to Vajrayana, no one has ever achieved Buddhahood any place on Earth or any place else, nor will they ever. If one is to say it's attained anywhere, it's Akanistha.

Now this is an embarrassingly wrong statement

Maybe he meant sutrayana

No, Indian Vajrayāna more or less follows sutra in terms of basic Buddhology.

[Malcolm]

The body of light aka rainbow body is simply the body reverting back to the five lights of wisdom. The sign of this is that at death the body shrinks to a very small size.

Hey Namdrol,
There are varying degrees of this are there not?
I cant really remember without looking it up (and I wouldnt post anything from it publicly anyways) but if I remember correctly at least one version of complete attainment in the Yeshe Lama leaves no trace. Maybe hair and nails or something.

Dzogchen describes two states of final Buddhahood: abhisambodhi and samyaksambodhi. The former is with residue, the latter without residue. The latter turns Mahāyāna buddhology on its head again, by asserting there is an abiding Buddhahood as opposed to the common Mahāyāna ideal of non-abiding Buddhahood.

[Josef]

The body of light aka rainbow body is simply the body reverting back to the five lights of wisdom. The sign of this is that at death the body shrinks to a very small size.

Hey Namdrol,
There are varying degrees of this are there not?
I cant really remember without looking it up (and I wouldnt post anything from it publicly anyways) but if I remember correctly at least one version of complete attainment in the Yeshe Lama leaves no trace. Maybe hair and nails or something.

Dzogchen describes two states of final Buddhahood: abhisambodhi and samyaksambodhi. The former is with residue, the latter without residue. The latter turns Mahāyāna buddhology on its head again, by asserting there is an abiding Buddhahood as opposed to the common Mahāyāna ideal of non-abiding Buddhahood.

Thanks, thats what I was looking for.

[Josef]

Kind of mixing threads here but I found this conversation from the "Yidam and Dzogchen" thread to be really fascinating and I think it is relevant here.
Namdrol, in that thread you made this post:
"It is because buddhahood of lower yānas is incomplete and does not reach the stage of ka dag chen po, great original purity. The simplest way to explain it is that after the this universe dissolves and the next one arises, those beings who have not achieved the stage of ka dag chen po start all over."

Now, are both abhisambodhi and samyaksambodhi at the stage of kadag chenpo?
And also, since the primordial wisdoms, elements etc. are present in every sentient being and are fully integrated at this stage, how does one who attains this stage escape returning to samsara when this universe dissolves and a new one comes into being? Is it simply that kadag chenpo is beyond any and all implications of a "universe"?
thanks for any more details you can provide on this.

[Indrajala]

Please keep on topic and don't misrepresent or put words into your opponent's mouth.

[Malcolm]

What is your idea about what an Arhat is?

Arhats are those who have eradicated all afflictive obscurations, have not necessarily gather the merit and wisdom accumulations needed for full buddhahood.

Bodhisattvas are not arhats until they become full buddhas i.e.tathāgatas, arhats, samyaksambuddhas. And they do not eradicate all afflictive obscurations until the end of the 7th bhumi.

N

You misread me.
Bodhisattvas are not Arhats but Arhats with vows to help others are Bodhisattvas.

Not, I did not misread you.

Bodhisattvas are not arhats in any sense until they become Buddhas.

[Malcolm]

Kind of mixing threads here but I found this conversation from the "Yidam and Dzogchen" thread to be really fascinating and I think it is relevant here.
Namdrol, in that thread you made this post:
"It is because buddhahood of lower yānas is incomplete and does not reach the stage of ka dag chen po, great original purity. The simplest way to explain it is that after the this universe dissolves and the next one arises, those beings who have not achieved the stage of ka dag chen po start all over."

Now, are both abhisambodhi and samyaksambodhi at the stage of kadag chenpo?
And also, since the primordial wisdoms, elements etc. are present in every sentient being and are fully integrated at this stage, how does one who attains this stage escape returning to samsara when this universe dissolves and a new one comes into being? Is it simply that kadag chenpo is beyond any and all implications of a "universe"?
thanks for any more details you can provide on this.

Only samyak.

[LastLegend]

Not, I did not misread you.

Bodhisattvas are not arhats in any sense until they become Buddhas.

Ok you are talking about 10 titles of Buddha. Then yes. But I was not talking about the title of Arhat as in Buddha.

[Malcolm]

Not, I did not misread you.

Bodhisattvas are not arhats in any sense until they become Buddhas.

Ok you are talking about 10 titles of Buddha. Then yes. But I was not talking about the title of Arhat as in Buddha.

In Mahayana, bodhisattvas are not arhats, not even remotely. They only become arhats when they achieve full awakening.

Stages 1-6 are the stages of stream entry. Stage 7 is a once returner. Stages 8-10 are never returners. Stage 11 is full buddhahood. There are no arhats in this scheme.

[tamdrin]

just to note.. bodhisattvas on the 8th stage are considered to have reached the level of arhats in terms of freedom from afflictive obscurations.

[LastLegend]

Not, I did not misread you.

Bodhisattvas are not arhats in any sense until they become Buddhas.

Ok you are talking about 10 titles of Buddha. Then yes. But I was not talking about the title of Arhat as in Buddha.

In Mahayana, bodhisattvas are not arhats, not even remotely. They only become arhats when they achieve full awakening.

Stages 1-6 are the stages of stream entry. Stage 7 is a once returner. Stages 8-10 are never returners. Stage 11 is full buddhahood. There are no arhats in this scheme.

Ok if you re-read what I wrote in the first post, I did not mean Arhat as in Hinayana sense. I later clarified by using equivalence of Arhat as in Mahayana for someone who has achieved Concentration through Tantra, Chan, or Pure Land. When I said potentials, I meant powers (e.g., ability to walk over water, turning from small to large or large to small). Because of similarity in potentials for Arhat of Hinayana and equivalence of Mahayana and that they are not yet reaching Nirvana and One Dharma Realm of Buddha, I called them all Arhat...just words man, don't get too caught up with them, at least that's how I see it.

The Arhat you mentioned is just another way to say Buddha.

I am sorry for the confusion.

[Nighthawk]

The body of light aka rainbow body is simply the body reverting back to the five lights of wisdom. The sign of this is that at death the body shrinks to a very small size.

Probably a dumb question. I don't know much about Vajrayana. Once rainbow body is achieved does it revert back to human form if it decides to? Not out of Bodhisattva compassion but just a natural process of being of created from the five wisdom lights and then reverting back and forth.

[Malcolm]

The body of light aka rainbow body is simply the body reverting back to the five lights of wisdom. The sign of this is that at death the body shrinks to a very small size.

Probably a dumb question. I don't know much about Vajrayana. Once rainbow body is achieved does it revert back to human form if it decides to? Not out of Bodhisattva compassion but just a natural process of being of created from the five wisdom lights and then reverting back and forth.

Since you are realizing the nature of your own wisdom, your body, externally, won't change at all. But your inner experience will be completely transformed.