emptiness = interdependence?

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Re: emptiness = interdependence?

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:40 pm

TMingyur wrote:A synonym for "direct perception", i.e. "perception perceives" ... without fabricating synthesizing thought.


Which aggregates are involved in a direct perception?




As "this" and "that" it can only be known through labelling. If there is no labelling as "this" and "that" then there is either "direct experience" (s. above) or stupor/dullness.


This means that clinging cannot be a direct experiences in any way, since clinging itself is a conceptual state produced through "fabricating, synthesizing thought". Direct perceptions are completely non-conceptual. The remedy to clinging therefore is recognizing the object clung to, as well as the clinging, and the clinger to be empty of identity. This recognition in turn leads to the cessation of clinging through the direct perception of the absence of identity in the tricakram, the three wheels.

One can however directly know that one is engaged in clinging. But clinging itself is fabricated, synthesized state that occurs through ignorance of identitylessness. One can cling to existence (appearance) or non-existence (disappearance) -- the middle way is realizing that in reality phenomena neither appear nor disappear, but are wholly constructed through, in your words, "fabricating, synthesizing thought".

What it all boils down to, in the end, is accepting and rejecting. The narrow path through the Scylla and Charybdis of accepting and rejecting, existence and non-existence, etc., is the realization of inseparable dependent origination and emptiness. There is no other path, no other middle way than this.
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Re: emptiness = interdependence?

Postby Rael » Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:00 pm

It's all based in attachment.

One can get attached to the process of coming to a state of non attachment.

thats why the view of emptiness is vital to be produced in one's mind stream.

different methods to come to this view should be employed....

this thread is part of that....

the crux of TMingy's attachment is thus....he doesn't want the Mahayana experience of Sunyata to be anything other than some blurb blurb action going on the practitioner's mind...
He refuses to see sunyata as anything other than mere philosophical understanding....

i don't normally say what other people are thinking ...but this is obvious....

For me the actual state of rigpa is an experience ,once one can stay in that state for a period of time....between the blurb blurb noise of the conventions of the mind we dwell with....that expierence is an expierence whether TMingy wants it to be or not to be....that is the TMingy dilemana.......Knowledge of Rigpa is knowledge...actually experiencing is another matter...Rigpa experience is obvious to the observer that it is" Empty in nature"...not nothingness...and this nothingness is the biggest misleading option one has in discovering the Living Philosophy of Sunyata


my advice to Tmingy...take the minging out of TMingy and you'll be fine... :rolling:

i should have been a lawyer.....
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Re: emptiness = interdependence?

Postby ground » Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:33 pm

Namdrol wrote:
TMingyur wrote:A synonym for "direct perception", i.e. "perception perceives" ... without fabricating synthesizing thought.


Which aggregates are involved in a direct perception?

Invalid question.


Namdrol wrote:
As "this" and "that" it can only be known through labelling. If there is no labelling as "this" and "that" then there is either "direct experience" (s. above) or stupor/dullness.


This means that clinging cannot be a direct experiences in any way, since clinging itself is a conceptual state produced through "fabricating, synthesizing thought".

No. You are confusing our talking and applying terms with direct experience.

Namdrol wrote:Direct perceptions are completely non-conceptual.

Direct perceptions as such, yes. But in saying "'XY' is directly perceived" one actually takes an effect ("XY") as being the cause (direct perpection). This is tricky language.

Namdrol wrote:The remedy to clinging therefore is recognizing the object clung to, as well as the clinging, and the clinger to be empty of identity.

In direct experience there is no identity. "Identity" is a fabrication following in the wake of attachment.

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Re: emptiness = interdependence?

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:46 pm

TMingyur wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
TMingyur wrote:A synonym for "direct perception", i.e. "perception perceives" ... without fabricating synthesizing thought.


Which aggregates are involved in a direct perception?

Invalid question.



It's a perfectly valid question. If you refuse to answer it means you do not know.

No. You are confusing our talking and applying terms with direct experience.


Clinging, upadāna, is not a direct experience. It is a mediated experience. With what is it mediated? imputations of identity.

In direct experience there is no identity. "Identity" is a fabrication following in the wake of attachment.


Then there can be no direct experience of clinging, since clinging depends, like all afflictive states, on a mistaken perception of identity.

Therefore, your contention that clinging can be directly experienced or is a direct experience is completely negated.

Next.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

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Re: emptiness = interdependence?

Postby conebeckham » Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:55 pm

Namdrol-
Aggregates involved in "direct perception" would depend on what is being perceived, yes?
So, for example, a direct perception of form would involve the eye consciousness. But this is immediately followed by the "image" in the Mental consciousness, and any "thinking" or "cognition" involving the form is based on the "image" in the mental consciousness, and not on the direct perception of the eye consciousness...in fact, I don't know that we can claim to have a direct perception of form by the eye consciousness prior to that perception being "registered" by the Mental consciousness?

(Edited for clarity)--
Last edited by conebeckham on Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: emptiness = interdependence?

Postby ground » Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:10 pm

Namdrol wrote:Clinging, upadāna, is not a direct experience. It is a mediated experience. With what is it mediated? imputations of identity.

It is not, yes. But a correlate of it can be directly experienced. Actually not only "can" but this correlate has to be directly experienced before a labelling thought can arise.

Namdrol wrote:
In direct experience there is no identity. "Identity" is a fabrication following in the wake of attachment.


Then there can be no direct experience of clinging, since clinging depends, like all afflictive states, on a mistaken perception of identity.

A directly experienced correlate that can develop (but not necessarily does) into the labelling thought.

Namdrol wrote:Therefore, your contention that clinging can be directly experienced or is a direct experience is completely negated.

Not so. The effect is characterized (i.e. labelled) as its cause.

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Re: emptiness = interdependence?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:02 pm

conebeckham wrote:Namdrol-
Aggregates involved in "direct perception" would depend on what is being perceived, yes?
So, for example, a direct perception of form would involve the eye consciousness. But this is immediately followed by the "image" in the Mental consciousness, and any "thinking" or "cognition" involving the form is based on the "image" in the mental consciousness, and not on the direct perception of the eye consciousness...in fact, I don't know that we can claim to have a direct perception of form by the eye consciousness prior to that perception being "registered" by the Mental consciousness?

(Edited for clarity)--
If this were possible we would be able to break the chain of dependent origination at the point of contact (phassa), but according to D.O. craving gives rise to contact (via feeling) so basically we have a mental effect before the contact, ie contact itself is an outcome of mind. I guess that makes direct perception out of the question.

This (if it is correct) gives rise to another question: without ignorance there is no perception?
:namaste:
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: emptiness = interdependence?

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:12 pm

TMingyur wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Clinging, upadāna, is not a direct experience. It is a mediated experience. With what is it mediated? imputations of identity.

It is not, yes. But a correlate of it can be directly experienced. Actually not only "can" but this correlate has to be directly experienced before a labelling thought can arise.



Your assertion was that clinging can be directly experienced, now you are claiming a correlate of it can be experienced. What correlate, does it have a name?

If not, you are spinning fantasies.



Namdrol wrote:
In direct experience there is no identity. "Identity" is a fabrication following in the wake of attachment.


Then there can be no direct experience of clinging, since clinging depends, like all afflictive states, on a mistaken perception of identity.

A directly experienced correlate that can develop (but not necessarily does) into the labelling thought.


I understand this is your theory, but it finds no support in the teaching of the Buddha.

Namdrol wrote:Therefore, your contention that clinging can be directly experienced or is a direct experience is completely negated.

Not so. The effect is characterized (i.e. labelled) as its cause.


Indeed, you are refuted on two counts. One) for fabricating correlates where none are necessary. Two) for asserting that clinging is a direct perception.

There is no correlate needed for clinging. This like imagining that motion needs a mover.

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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

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Re: emptiness = interdependence?

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:14 pm

conebeckham wrote:Namdrol-
Aggregates involved in "direct perception" would depend on what is being perceived, yes?
So, for example, a direct perception of form would involve the eye consciousness. But this is immediately followed by the "image" in the Mental consciousness, and any "thinking" or "cognition" involving the form is based on the "image" in the mental consciousness, and not on the direct perception of the eye consciousness...in fact, I don't know that we can claim to have a direct perception of form by the eye consciousness prior to that perception being "registered" by the Mental consciousness?

(Edited for clarity)--


'
Direct perceptions are non-conceptual i.e. apriori to mental images.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: emptiness = interdependence?

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:15 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
If this were possible we would be able to break the chain of dependent origination at the point of contact (phassa), but according to D.O. craving gives rise to contact (via feeling) so basically we have a mental effect before the contact, ie contact itself is an outcome of mind. I guess that makes direct perception out of the question.

This (if it is correct) gives rise to another question: without ignorance there is no perception?
:namaste:



Sorry greg, you have your nidanas backward -- it is contact --> sensation --> craving --> clinging -- becoming -- etc.

We can break DO at sparsha. We can break it at any point. It is easiest however to break it at vedana.
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http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: emptiness = interdependence?

Postby conebeckham » Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:08 am

Direct perceptions are non-conceptual i.e. apriori to mental images.


This is as I understood, thanks.
Clinging does not occur until after the unmediated "image" becomes a "mental image," I think...correct?

In other words, if one can understand that all such "images" are, in fact, not "the real thing," and not even the unmediated preconceptual perception of object (if, in fact, one believes in the external thing which is perceived nonconceptually), in other words, they're at least "twice removed," then this could sever the link and clinging would not exist?
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Re: emptiness = interdependence?

Postby ground » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:21 am

Namdrol wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Clinging, upadāna, is not a direct experience. It is a mediated experience. With what is it mediated? imputations of identity.

It is not, yes. But a correlate of it can be directly experienced. Actually not only "can" but this correlate has to be directly experienced before a labelling thought can arise.



Your assertion was that clinging can be directly experienced, now you are claiming a correlate of it can be experienced. What correlate, does it have a name?

If not, you are spinning fantasies.


I have been using the term "correlate" again and again. Now I have reminded you that when the effect is labelled the cause ("XY is directly experienced") we are actually referring to a correlate of XY in the context of direct experience. "Correlate" is an linguistic approximation for what a name cannot be applied. It stands for what names are "linked to" (metaphorically spoken) in direct experience.
Each instance of applying language, i.e. terms and terminology is an instance of approximating one (of many) aspects. Each statement approximates another aspect. If you want all statements to be identical as to referred aspect you want truth to be either definitely_and_exclusively "this" or definitely_and_exclusively "that". This demand of yours may be valid in the limitating context of some conventional formal logic but it is not valid in the context of what may be called "being" and the liberation involved in the path the buddha taught in this context.

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Re: emptiness = interdependence?

Postby conebeckham » Thu Apr 14, 2011 4:01 am

TMINGYUR-

Is your "Correlate" what I would call the "mental image" of the direct perception by the sense faculty and consciousness?
In other words, the image that exists in the mental consciousness? Do you understand my question?
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Re: emptiness = interdependence?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:06 am

Namdrol wrote:Sorry greg, you have your nidanas backward -- it is contact --> sensation --> craving --> clinging -- becoming -- etc.


SN 12.2

Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta: Analysis of Dependent Co-arising

translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

© 1997–2011

Dwelling at Savatthi... "Monks, I will describe & analyze dependent co-arising for you.

"And what is dependent co-arising? From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"Now what is aging and death? Whatever aging, decrepitude, brokenness, graying, wrinkling, decline of life-force, weakening of the faculties of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called aging. Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death, completion of time, break up of the aggregates, casting off of the body, interruption in the life faculty of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called death.

"And what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] media of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth.

"And what is becoming? These three are becomings: sensual becoming, form becoming, & formless becoming. This is called becoming.

"And what is clinging/sustenance? These four are clingings: sensuality clinging, view clinging, precept & practice clinging, and doctrine of self clinging. This is called clinging.

"And what is craving? These six are classes of craving: craving for forms, craving for sounds, craving for smells, craving for tastes, craving for tactile sensations, craving for ideas. This is called craving.

"And what is feeling? These six are classes of feeling: feeling born from eye-contact, feeling born from ear-contact, feeling born from nose-contact, feeling born from tongue-contact, feeling born from body-contact, feeling born from intellect-contact. This is called feeling.

"And what is contact? These six are classes of contact: eye-contact, ear-contact, nose-contact, tongue-contact, body-contact, intellect-contact. This is called contact.

"And what are the six sense media? These six are sense media: the eye-medium, the ear-medium, the nose-medium, the tongue-medium, the body-medium, the intellect-medium. These are called the six sense media.

"And what is name-&-form? Feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention: This is called name. The four great elements, and the form dependent on the four great elements: This is called form. This name & this form are called name-&-form.

"And what is consciousness? These six are classes of consciousness: eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, intellect-consciousness. This is called consciousness.

"And what are fabrications? These three are fabrications: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, mental fabrications. These are called fabrications.

"And what is ignorance? Not knowing stress, not knowing the origination of stress, not knowing the cessation of stress, not knowing the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: This is called ignorance.

"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
You, of course, are right. I read it based on a Wiki link where DO was based on the explanation and not on the series given at the beginning of the teaching. My mistake (and a serious one at that, but I guess that's what happens when you use Wiki as a quick reference instead of turning to the full text)!

We can break DO at sparsha. We can break it at any point. It is easiest however to break it at vedana.
Isn't it that if you break it at any other point the particular point may arise again (ie you cannot permanently eradicate contact for example) whereas breaking it at ignorance, the break can become permanent?
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: emptiness = interdependence?

Postby catmoon » Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:39 am

Hmm. Interesting line of reasoning just popped up.

Ignorance is the source of all afflictive emotions.

If we destroy ignororance, we destroy all afflictive emotions.

Greg has ignorance.

Therefore, if we kill Greg, we will destroy ignorance, end afflictive emotions and shortly attain Buddhahood.
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Re: emptiness = interdependence?

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:34 am

catmoon wrote:Hmm. Interesting line of reasoning just popped up.

Ignorance is the source of all afflictive emotions.

If we destroy ignororance, we destroy all afflictive emotions.

Greg has ignorance.

Therefore, if we kill Greg, we will destroy ignorance, end afflictive emotions and shortly attain Buddhahood.


No, if we kill Greg, he'll only take his ignorance with him and be reborn as a powerful Rudra and come back and smite us. Then we'll probably be reborn as rudras in his retinue, and eventually we'll end up as the cushion on somebody's lotus and sun seat haha.
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Re: emptiness = interdependence?

Postby Pero » Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:07 pm

:rolling: @ last two posts. :lol:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: emptiness = interdependence?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:25 pm

catmoon wrote:Hmm. Interesting line of reasoning just popped up.

Ignorance is the source of all afflictive emotions.

If we destroy ignororance, we destroy all afflictive emotions.

Greg has ignorance.

Therefore, if we kill Greg, we will destroy ignorance, end afflictive emotions and shortly attain Buddhahood.

You cannot even begin to imagine how many incarnations in vajra hells you will undergo (were you will be basted in a honey and soy sauce and rolled in sesame seeds before being slowly grilled over a cedar wood charcoal flame) for even considering killing the Northener Representative and Buddhist Dharma HIGH Regent Plenipotentiary (Intergalactic Super Buddha).

Lucky for you, if you give me a lot of money (either in cash or, preferably, in an equal value of diamonds and gold bullion) plus lifetime membership to the Dubai ski club I may consider calling on my direct line to Yamaraja and cancelling a few of those incarnations. Oh, yeah, payment in advance thank you!
:namaste:
PS I wouldn't even bother smiteing you, imagine all the effort involved, I would just send one of my (many) minions to do that!
Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: emptiness = interdependence?

Postby Josef » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:33 pm

conebeckham wrote:TMINGYUR-

Is your "Correlate" what I would call the "mental image" of the direct perception by the sense faculty and consciousness?
In other words, the image that exists in the mental consciousness? Do you understand my question?

Maybe Tmingyur is using "correlate" in the sense of pramana or valid cognition.
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Re: emptiness = interdependence?

Postby Malcolm » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:47 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Direct perceptions are non-conceptual i.e. apriori to mental images.


This is as I understood, thanks.
Clinging does not occur until after the unmediated "image" becomes a "mental image," I think...correct?



Correct.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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