Is the Lotus Sutra just fction

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Is the Lotus Sutra just fction

Postby Rael » Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:54 pm

ok so like the Lord Nagarjuna thread ...i scored big time....

hey it's baseball season so lets see if i can be two for two....

At one time just like Tien Tai and Nichiren i believed in the lotus Sutra word for word and that it actually happened over the last 7 or 8 years of our Lord Sakyamuni's life....

now i am to believe it was just something made up...someone just said it wasn't Kumarajiva's stuff...he just translated it....

so can someone please execute once and for all, this piece of non Buddhist fiction....

i mean, "really now"....

oh and one more question....

The Medicine Buddha mantra comes from it I believe...and the Medicine Buddha from the Lapiz Pure Land is in a whole chapter....

Is this where Tibetans get their Medicine Buddha thing....

something i love to this day....
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Re: Is the Lotus Sutra just fction

Postby Jikan » Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:13 pm

No, it's not a work of fiction, although it does have literary value.

It presents the authentic teachings of the Mahayana. So does the Prajnaparamita sutra. So does the Ratnagotravibhaga and the Lankavatara Sutra, the whole corpus of Mahayana literature in Sanskrit. I'll go further and say that the "apocryphal" sutras produced in China such as the Brahma Net Sutra, the Surangama Sutra, and the Sutra of Complete Enlightenment are also not fiction but do present the authentic teaching of the Mahayana. The Awakening of Faith too. Further: the writings of siddhas such as Nagarjuna, Guru Padmasambhava, Milarepa, and Chih-i can be described the same way.

You don't have to believe the whole assembly of listeners and the two Buddhas in the stupa very literally extended their tongues to the heavens emitting blinding rays of light (see chapter 20) to understand how the truth is transmitted through these texts.
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Re: Is the Lotus Sutra just fction

Postby Astus » Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:16 pm

"At that time the Buddha Candrasūryapradīpa, having emerged from samādhi, remained sitting for sixty intermediate kalpas and revealed to Bodhisattva Varaprabha the Mahayana sutra called Saddharmapuṇḍarīka, the White Lotus of the Marvelous Law, which was the instruction for bodhisattvas and the treasured lore of the buddhas. The assembly also sat there undisturbed in body and mind listening to the Buddha’s exposition for sixty intermediate kalpas as if only a single mealtime had passed; during that time not a single person among them experienced fatigue of body or mind."

What is the Lotus Sutra?
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Is the Lotus Sutra just fction

Postby Rael » Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:24 pm

Astus wrote:"At that time the Buddha Candrasūryapradīpa, having emerged from samādhi, remained sitting for sixty intermediate kalpas and revealed to Bodhisattva Varaprabha the Mahayana sutra called Saddharmapuṇḍarīka, the White Lotus of the Marvelous Law, which was the instruction for bodhisattvas and the treasured lore of the buddhas. The assembly also sat there undisturbed in body and mind listening to the Buddha’s exposition for sixty intermediate kalpas as if only a single mealtime had passed; during that time not a single person among them experienced fatigue of body or mind."

What is the Lotus Sutra?


i dunno any longer....

At least Lord Nagarjuna somehow saw fit for me to know of Him....

I'm having a good day...when things are made clear to me i rejoice....

this other nagging weirdness is and will be straightened out....

wandering round in a fog is the way of Rael....

mercy sometimes falls unto the lad...and he no longer slanders the Law and It's teachers....not to mention anoying the bejeevers outta fellow bored members.....
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Re: Is the Lotus Sutra just fction

Postby Mr. G » Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:30 pm

Rael,

You may find this introductory book very helpful: Mahayana Buddhism: The Doctrinal Foundations by Paul Wililams

It may answer a lot your current and future questions. I know I've found it very helpful.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Is the Lotus Sutra just fction

Postby Kare » Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:50 pm

Recommended reading on the Lotus Sutra:

http://www.amazon.com/Text-Father-Seduc ... 183&sr=8-1
Kåre A. Lie
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Re: Is the Lotus Sutra just fction

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:40 pm

Is the divine right of the ............. (insert despot of your choice) to rule over the people fiction? Does it matter if it is fiction or not, or does the consequence of people believing (or being forced ro believe) in the divine right make it real?

When philosophers started to teach that the earth was not flat but it was round, did it (initially) make any difference that it was the truth? No! Actually some of them were executed for their utterances. What mattered was when the majority of people started to believe that it was round and started to act in manners that proved that it was a round.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Is the Lotus Sutra just fction

Postby conebeckham » Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:26 pm

Is Dharma Wheel just fiction?

Is conebeckham just fiction?

is Rael just fiction?

Is the Real just Fiction?
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Re: Is the Lotus Sutra just fction

Postby Malcolm » Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:42 pm

conebeckham wrote:Is Dharma Wheel just fiction?

Is conebeckham just fiction?

is Rael just fiction?

Is the Real just Fiction?



Yup. A novel written by discursive mind.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

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Re: Is the Lotus Sutra just fction

Postby Rael » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:00 am

Namdrol wrote:
conebeckham wrote:Is Dharma Wheel just fiction?

Is conebeckham just fiction?

is Rael just fiction?

Is the Real just Fiction?



Yup. A novel written by discursive mind.

so the lotus sutra is really not even Buddhist...

and what of Medicine Buddha where does that originate...

please
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Re: Is the Lotus Sutra just fction

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:08 am

Rael wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
conebeckham wrote:Is Dharma Wheel just fiction?

Is conebeckham just fiction?

is Rael just fiction?

Is the Real just Fiction?



Yup. A novel written by discursive mind.

so the lotus sutra is really not even Buddhist...

and what of Medicine Buddha where does that originate...

please


I was kidding around.

The Lotus Sutra is Buddhist.

There is no such thing as original Buddhism.

This is a total invention of western Protestants projecting their own neurosis about text and authenticity.

Mahāyāna is just Buddhists doing Buddhism. The Lotus Sutra is one version of that. If you don't like the Lotus, move on. You will find another sutra you like.

Me, I just stick with Dzogchen.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Is the Lotus Sutra just fction

Postby Rael » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:46 am

Namdrol wrote:I was kidding around.

The Lotus Sutra is Buddhist.

There is no such thing as original Buddhism.

This is a total invention of western Protestants projecting their own neurosis about text and authenticity.

Mahāyāna is just Buddhists doing Buddhism. The Lotus Sutra is one version of that. If you don't like the Lotus, move on. You will find another sutra you like.

Me, I just stick with Dzogchen.

Namdrol...you have my attention and respect...
i implore you to tell me.

what you think the LS really is


who do you think wrote the thing....


and where did Medicine Buddha originate....

Dzogchen eh...so you are Nyingma then...i believe this is exclusive to them...yes /no....
or you were

i
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Re: Is the Lotus Sutra just fction

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:04 am

conebeckham wrote:is Rael just fiction?
Hell! When I said this in the Nagarjuna thread it got deleted and I was trying to make exactly the same point! Bummer!
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Is the Lotus Sutra just fction

Postby Seishin » Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:14 am

Rael wrote:what you think the LS really is


who do you think wrote the thing....


and where did Medicine Buddha originate....


This line of questioning reminds me of the Parable of the Poisoned Arrow http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

'I won't have this arrow removed until I know whether the man who wounded me was a noble warrior, a priest, a merchant, or a worker.' He would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know the given name & clan name of the man who wounded me... until I know whether he was tall, medium, or short... until I know whether he was dark, ruddy-brown, or golden-colored... until I know his home village, town, or city... until I know whether the bow with which I was wounded was a long bow or a crossbow...


I too used to think this when I read Mahayana Sutras. People used to tell me how wonderful they were and I just could never get it. That was until I realised that I wasn't "reading" the texts, I was "analysing" them. If you just read them, for what they are, a whole new world opens up. I've learnt a lot from Mahayana texts, especially the Lotus Sutra. I can now read them and appreciate them.

I recommend reading "Stories of the Lotus Sutra" by Gene Reeves http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stories-Lotus-S ... 386&sr=8-1

Gassho,
Seishin.
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Re: Is the Lotus Sutra just fction

Postby LastLegend » Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:27 am

^ Yes yes reading without analyzing or thinking...this is actually a practice of concentration.
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Re: Is the Lotus Sutra just fction

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:22 am

See here for information regarding the Medicine Buddha and his Sutra:
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/medbudsutra.pdf
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Is the Lotus Sutra just fction

Postby Kyosan » Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:51 pm

Seishin wrote:...I recommend reading "Stories of the Lotus Sutra" by Gene Reeves http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stories-Lotus-S ... 386&sr=8-1

Gassho,
Seishin.

Dr. Gene Reeves is a very interesting person. He also wrote an English translation of the Lotus Sutra

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lotus-Sutra-Con ... gy_b_img_b

which is said to be very easy to read and also includes the "Sutra of Innumerable Meanings" and the "Sutra of Meditation on the Bodhisattva Universal Virtue". I found these talks on the Lotus Sutra given by him

http://www.rk-world.org/dt_videoaudio.aspx
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Re: Is the Lotus Sutra just fction

Postby Rael » Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:07 pm

Well thanks Greg but seeing what you gave me seems to have been produced on 650AD it seems it might be a run off from the chapter in the Lotus Sutra...

Weird how my Medicine Buddha initiation is more valid to me than the origins of...

for real....and thats for the guy with the arrow tale......

I don't think people get me yet....lol...actually it's not a lol thing it's more of wait and see.....

i really feel some here are assuming things about me...

look at this sentence:
"Weird how my Medicine Buddha initiation is more valid to me than the origins of"

it's not that it is more valid....it is valid totally...

The lotus sutra is so far out there sci fi....and yet i was a slave to it in various Nichiren schools of thought....

i say slave ...for these people actually boiled it done to two and half chapters and the rest of the sutra along with any other religion or philosophy is poison ...literally....all the while using UNESCO as a back drop to propagate in the name of tolerance and freedom of religion....

but i digress.....actually you just had a peek into my psyche on the subject....

i just have to know how bogus the thing is....

it's ok with me that it's like accepted Buddhist teachings...well maybe not ...the other mahayana done in the name of Buddhism i guess are ok...but not this sutra....for me.....

ok i think you will have to be a genius to sift through this post and understand the point of....

that or a Medicine Buddha... :tongue:
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Re: Is the Lotus Sutra just fction

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:31 pm

Rael wrote:Namdrol...you have my attention and respect...
i implore you to tell me.

what you think the LS really is

who do you think wrote the thing....



It was first translated into Chinese between 265-317 CE. Generally it is assumed that Sutras predate their Chinese translation by fifty to one hundred years. But since this sutra is early in the Chinese canon, it could have been composed as much as 400 years before its transmission to China. Broadest range the Saddharmapundarika could have been composed in would be in the range of 100 BCE to 150-200 CE. Since it was one of the earliest sutras translated into Chinese, these indicates its importance to early Mahāyānists. As it stands, it was not composed all at once and comprises several layers.

As to its origin, it is fair to say that it is an inspired vision.

and where did Medicine Buddha originate....


Well, we have the Lotus Sutra, the Medicine Buddha Sutra, and the presence of Medicine Buddha's dharani in the fifth century Buddhist Ayruvedic text, Aṣṭṅgahridayasamhita.

Again, its author is anonymous and its origin is inspired. As a doctor of Tibetan Medicine, I practice Medicine Buddha everyday.


Dzogchen eh...so you are Nyingma then...i believe this is exclusive to them...yes /no....
or you were


I am a Dzogchen practitioner, I don't fell like I belong to any school. I had a lot of training in Sakya. But I don't feel connected with any one school more than any other school. Instead I feel connected with the Dzogchen teachings more than any particular school. If you have to give me a tradition, Tibetan Medicine has an independent tradition of practice that only doctors undertake. It is also connected with Dzogchen. I guess technically you could say I am a Nyingmapa, but I don't feel like I really belong to this school or that school. I am a Buddhist.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Is the Lotus Sutra just fction

Postby Josef » Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:00 pm

Kyosan wrote:
Seishin wrote:...I recommend reading "Stories of the Lotus Sutra" by Gene Reeves http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stories-Lotus-S ... 386&sr=8-1

Gassho,
Seishin.

Dr. Gene Reeves is a very interesting person. He also wrote an English translation of the Lotus Sutra

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lotus-Sutra-Con ... gy_b_img_b

which is said to be very easy to read and also includes the "Sutra of Innumerable Meanings" and the "Sutra of Meditation on the Bodhisattva Universal Virtue". I found these talks on the Lotus Sutra given by him

http://www.rk-world.org/dt_videoaudio.aspx

I had the pleasure of meeting Gene not too long ago.
Not only is he arguably the greatest living scholar on the Lotus Sutra but he is alo a wonderful character.
His books are definitely the way to go if one wants to understand the LS.
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