TMingyur: "No I am far from claiming this, but it is a try to point at the difference between the Buddhas teachings and the teachings of what I call "philosophers"."
From one concept another comes about what we seem to percieve in that way and so we create our little limited world by rejection/acception.
no one labeling object is the problem but our own misperception, our own grasping.
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The thicket of views
Re: The thicket of views
by muni » Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:11 am
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Re: The thicket of views
by Sherab » Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:52 am
TMingyur wrote:Sherab wrote:TMingyur wrote:Dharma is 'wisdom' but cannot be learned by means of tenets and conceptual views taught by a teacher other than the Buddha although there is insistence that this may be so.
According to your view, we should ignore all the teachings given by the disciples of the Buddha. Sounds like a good example of "the thicket of views".
Unfounded conclusion.
Kind regards
My conclusion logically inferred from your statement. What is the basis of your reply of "unfounded conclusion"?
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Re: The thicket of views
by gregkavarnos » Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:04 am
Dear Retro,
you said:
But in this topic here viewtopic.php?f=66&t=2860&start=120 it was implied that some topics are beyond the range of the non-aryan mindstream or can only be approached by a bodhisattva of the sixth level and lower when they are in meditation. Well I don't know if any of us here fit into either of these categories so I just have to surmise that we are all expounding views here. Now whether they are substantiated or not is a issue that you have raised, maybe we could discuss it in this thread given its title and given that the thread had veered off track anyway (though it is kind of relevant).
you said:
retrofuturist wrote:This depicts very much an all-or-nothing form of enlightenment (what about lesser stream entrants, stream entrants, anagamis, arahants, sammasambuddhas, bodhisattvas etc.) To imply that anyone short of the "fully enlightened" is always espousing (unsubstantiated) views seems too binary to me.
But in this topic here viewtopic.php?f=66&t=2860&start=120 it was implied that some topics are beyond the range of the non-aryan mindstream or can only be approached by a bodhisattva of the sixth level and lower when they are in meditation. Well I don't know if any of us here fit into either of these categories so I just have to surmise that we are all expounding views here. Now whether they are substantiated or not is a issue that you have raised, maybe we could discuss it in this thread given its title and given that the thread had veered off track anyway (though it is kind of relevant).
"Meditation is familiarisation with realisation"
Jigten Sumgon Gonchig: The Single Intent, the Sacred Dharma
"Oh great bodhisattva, you ought to understand the quintessence in this way: Whatever appears is one in its suchness. It cannot be falsified by anyone. The sovereign of unconceptualised sameness dwells in the spirit of the Dharmakaya which cannot be cognised."
The All Creating Sovereign, Mind of Perfect Purity.
"Ego is constantly attempting to acquire and apply the teachings of spirituality for its own benefit."
Chogyam Trungpa
Jigten Sumgon Gonchig: The Single Intent, the Sacred Dharma
"Oh great bodhisattva, you ought to understand the quintessence in this way: Whatever appears is one in its suchness. It cannot be falsified by anyone. The sovereign of unconceptualised sameness dwells in the spirit of the Dharmakaya which cannot be cognised."
The All Creating Sovereign, Mind of Perfect Purity.
"Ego is constantly attempting to acquire and apply the teachings of spirituality for its own benefit."
Chogyam Trungpa
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Re: The thicket of views
by muni » Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:59 am
Just using Buddhism as another form of clinging, clinging to views=merely grasping to cosy fitting samsara game of Buddhism. the door for compassion and ones own grow of insight remains closed in limitation.
Some did not suffer enough, a friend said. At least not all so called Buddhists are with the aim to get rightenesses, or worldly fame-aim.
Of course: all teaching methods what fit me, is 'revealing' wisdom, what fits not is rubbish. strange, this is not so the same for my neighbour.
Some did not suffer enough, a friend said. At least not all so called Buddhists are with the aim to get rightenesses, or worldly fame-aim.
Of course: all teaching methods what fit me, is 'revealing' wisdom, what fits not is rubbish. strange, this is not so the same for my neighbour.
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Re: The thicket of views
by gregkavarnos » Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:43 pm
Views of the Thicket
- thicket.jpg (16.51 KiB) Viewed 666 times
"Meditation is familiarisation with realisation"
Jigten Sumgon Gonchig: The Single Intent, the Sacred Dharma
"Oh great bodhisattva, you ought to understand the quintessence in this way: Whatever appears is one in its suchness. It cannot be falsified by anyone. The sovereign of unconceptualised sameness dwells in the spirit of the Dharmakaya which cannot be cognised."
The All Creating Sovereign, Mind of Perfect Purity.
"Ego is constantly attempting to acquire and apply the teachings of spirituality for its own benefit."
Chogyam Trungpa
Jigten Sumgon Gonchig: The Single Intent, the Sacred Dharma
"Oh great bodhisattva, you ought to understand the quintessence in this way: Whatever appears is one in its suchness. It cannot be falsified by anyone. The sovereign of unconceptualised sameness dwells in the spirit of the Dharmakaya which cannot be cognised."
The All Creating Sovereign, Mind of Perfect Purity.
"Ego is constantly attempting to acquire and apply the teachings of spirituality for its own benefit."
Chogyam Trungpa
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gregkavarnos - Global Moderator
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Re: The thicket of views
by ground » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:23 pm
muni wrote:TMingyur: "No I am far from claiming this, but it is a try to point at the difference between the Buddhas teachings and the teachings of what I call "philosophers"."
From one concept another comes about what we seem to percieve in that way and so we create our little limited world by rejection/acception.
no one labeling object is the problem but our own misperception, our own grasping.
Discerning difference does not necessarily go together with rejection/acception. Does it appear that way to you?
Perhaps "appropriate" and "non-appropriate" are better?
Kind regards
Last edited by ground on Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The thicket of views
by Tara » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:10 pm
Cleaning in progress. Back to this post viewtopic.php?f=66&t=3746&start=60#p34195
This is a public forum. Every post in every topic is there for any member to respond to, even those posts which have addressed to a specific individual (it seems).
The reason for the underlined section of the bolded out part above is to show how double standards arise (i.e. 'do as I say not as I do') please see this post viewtopic.php?f=66&t=3746&start=60#p34195 where a member responds to a post specifically addressed to another member viewtopic.php?f=66&t=3746&start=60#p34193. (Just because one does not appreciate or like a response to one's posting is no reason to lay down rules, especially if one does not abide by one's own rules thus establishing a double standard.)
Communicating/communication is difficult at the best of times. Layering one's own rules (double standards in this instance) on top of the existing Forum rules potentially creates causes for off topic posts some of which contain personal attacks and comments about other members adding to the chaos, all of which can result in the topic deviating from the OP and degenerating with Moderators having to spend time trawling through topics to weed out posts which are out of order.
Regards,
rt
TMingyur wrote:Well sorry then I cannot take it serious. So you may just refrain from responding to my questions. Especially if those are not adressed to you.
This is a public forum. Every post in every topic is there for any member to respond to, even those posts which have addressed to a specific individual (it seems).
The reason for the underlined section of the bolded out part above is to show how double standards arise (i.e. 'do as I say not as I do') please see this post viewtopic.php?f=66&t=3746&start=60#p34195 where a member responds to a post specifically addressed to another member viewtopic.php?f=66&t=3746&start=60#p34193. (Just because one does not appreciate or like a response to one's posting is no reason to lay down rules, especially if one does not abide by one's own rules thus establishing a double standard.)
Communicating/communication is difficult at the best of times. Layering one's own rules (double standards in this instance) on top of the existing Forum rules potentially creates causes for off topic posts some of which contain personal attacks and comments about other members adding to the chaos, all of which can result in the topic deviating from the OP and degenerating with Moderators having to spend time trawling through topics to weed out posts which are out of order.
Regards,
rt
Tara
Mors certa — hora incerta
***********************
In these difficult times you may feel that it is helpful
To be sharp and critical with aggressive people around you.
This approach will just be a source of distress and confusion for you.
Speak calmly – that’s my sincere advice. - from Longchenpa's 30 Pieces of Sincere Advice
Mors certa — hora incerta
***********************
In these difficult times you may feel that it is helpful
To be sharp and critical with aggressive people around you.
This approach will just be a source of distress and confusion for you.
Speak calmly – that’s my sincere advice. - from Longchenpa's 30 Pieces of Sincere Advice
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Re: The thicket of views
by Tara » Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:07 pm
Topic unlocked. Several off topic posts have been deleted (not all so as to retain some semblance of flow).
POLITE REMINDER
Please endeavour to stay on topic and refrain from personal attacks or making comments about other members.
Regards,
rt
POLITE REMINDER
Please endeavour to stay on topic and refrain from personal attacks or making comments about other members.
Regards,
rt
Tara
Mors certa — hora incerta
***********************
In these difficult times you may feel that it is helpful
To be sharp and critical with aggressive people around you.
This approach will just be a source of distress and confusion for you.
Speak calmly – that’s my sincere advice. - from Longchenpa's 30 Pieces of Sincere Advice
Mors certa — hora incerta
***********************
In these difficult times you may feel that it is helpful
To be sharp and critical with aggressive people around you.
This approach will just be a source of distress and confusion for you.
Speak calmly – that’s my sincere advice. - from Longchenpa's 30 Pieces of Sincere Advice
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Tara - Site Admin
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Re: The thicket of views
by muni » Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:44 pm
TMingyur wrote:muni wrote:TMingyur: "No I am far from claiming this, but it is a try to point at the difference between the Buddhas teachings and the teachings of what I call "philosophers"."
From one concept another comes about what we seem to percieve in that way and so we create our little limited world by rejection/acception.
no one labeling object is the problem but our own misperception, our own grasping.
Discerning difference does not necessarily go together with rejection/acception. Does it appear that way to you?
Perhaps "appropriate" and "non-appropriate" are better?
Kind regards
While how all is, is not conditioned by any prefered choice, still appropriate teaching - mind in a way which gives fully confidence, trust to cut through all misperception to undo suffering.
the diversity of the teachings spread (also on internet) seems not to make it easier.
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Re: The thicket of views
by ground » Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:49 pm
That was a good sweeping.
Yes!
And returning to the OP's questions:
I consider the questions to have been answered exhaustively.
Thanks to all who participated ... passionately or dispassionately.
Kind regards
rainbowtara wrote:Please endeavour to stay on topic ...
Yes!
And returning to the OP's questions:
TMingyur wrote:Why is this? What makes non-differentiating, all-inclusive fabrications so attractive?
I consider the questions to have been answered exhaustively.
Thanks to all who participated ... passionately or dispassionately.
Kind regards
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Re: The thicket of views
by gregkavarnos » Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:10 pm
You may be surprised to know that some of us here consider Nagarjuna a Buddha, Guru Padmasambhava a Buddha and our own teacher a Buddha (amongst others) so before you throw around your labels it might pay to be a bit more subtle (and justify your claims). Anyway, if I remember correctly in another thread you stated that you did not even consider Nagarjuna a philosopher.TMingyur wrote:No I am far from claiming this, but it is a try to point at the difference between the Buddhas teachings and the teachings of what I call "philosophers".
"Meditation is familiarisation with realisation"
Jigten Sumgon Gonchig: The Single Intent, the Sacred Dharma
"Oh great bodhisattva, you ought to understand the quintessence in this way: Whatever appears is one in its suchness. It cannot be falsified by anyone. The sovereign of unconceptualised sameness dwells in the spirit of the Dharmakaya which cannot be cognised."
The All Creating Sovereign, Mind of Perfect Purity.
"Ego is constantly attempting to acquire and apply the teachings of spirituality for its own benefit."
Chogyam Trungpa
Jigten Sumgon Gonchig: The Single Intent, the Sacred Dharma
"Oh great bodhisattva, you ought to understand the quintessence in this way: Whatever appears is one in its suchness. It cannot be falsified by anyone. The sovereign of unconceptualised sameness dwells in the spirit of the Dharmakaya which cannot be cognised."
The All Creating Sovereign, Mind of Perfect Purity.
"Ego is constantly attempting to acquire and apply the teachings of spirituality for its own benefit."
Chogyam Trungpa
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gregkavarnos - Global Moderator
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Re: The thicket of views
by ground » Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:21 pm
gregkavarnos wrote:Anyway, if I remember correctly in another thread you stated that you did not even consider Nagarjuna a philosopher.
"Good" or "bad"?
Kind regards
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Re: The thicket of views
by gregkavarnos » Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:50 pm
TMingyur wrote:gregkavarnos wrote:Anyway, if I remember correctly in another thread you stated that you did not even consider Nagarjuna a philosopher.
"Good" or "bad"?
Kind regards
You figure it out.
"Meditation is familiarisation with realisation"
Jigten Sumgon Gonchig: The Single Intent, the Sacred Dharma
"Oh great bodhisattva, you ought to understand the quintessence in this way: Whatever appears is one in its suchness. It cannot be falsified by anyone. The sovereign of unconceptualised sameness dwells in the spirit of the Dharmakaya which cannot be cognised."
The All Creating Sovereign, Mind of Perfect Purity.
"Ego is constantly attempting to acquire and apply the teachings of spirituality for its own benefit."
Chogyam Trungpa
Jigten Sumgon Gonchig: The Single Intent, the Sacred Dharma
"Oh great bodhisattva, you ought to understand the quintessence in this way: Whatever appears is one in its suchness. It cannot be falsified by anyone. The sovereign of unconceptualised sameness dwells in the spirit of the Dharmakaya which cannot be cognised."
The All Creating Sovereign, Mind of Perfect Purity.
"Ego is constantly attempting to acquire and apply the teachings of spirituality for its own benefit."
Chogyam Trungpa
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gregkavarnos - Global Moderator
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Re: The thicket of views
by Rael » Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:59 pm
gregkavarnos wrote:TMingyur wrote:gregkavarnos wrote:Anyway, if I remember correctly in another thread you stated that you did not even consider Nagarjuna a philosopher.
"Good" or "bad"?
Kind regards
You figure it out.
Greg you can't get upset over other's views....
i don't think nagajuna was real...i started a thread on it..
it seems fishy to me
Love Love Love
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Re: The thicket of views
by gregkavarnos » Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:02 pm
Not talking about Nagarjuna, talking about inconstancy of views.
"Meditation is familiarisation with realisation"
Jigten Sumgon Gonchig: The Single Intent, the Sacred Dharma
"Oh great bodhisattva, you ought to understand the quintessence in this way: Whatever appears is one in its suchness. It cannot be falsified by anyone. The sovereign of unconceptualised sameness dwells in the spirit of the Dharmakaya which cannot be cognised."
The All Creating Sovereign, Mind of Perfect Purity.
"Ego is constantly attempting to acquire and apply the teachings of spirituality for its own benefit."
Chogyam Trungpa
Jigten Sumgon Gonchig: The Single Intent, the Sacred Dharma
"Oh great bodhisattva, you ought to understand the quintessence in this way: Whatever appears is one in its suchness. It cannot be falsified by anyone. The sovereign of unconceptualised sameness dwells in the spirit of the Dharmakaya which cannot be cognised."
The All Creating Sovereign, Mind of Perfect Purity.
"Ego is constantly attempting to acquire and apply the teachings of spirituality for its own benefit."
Chogyam Trungpa
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gregkavarnos - Global Moderator
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Re: The thicket of views
by Rael » Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:18 pm
gregkavarnos wrote:Not talking about Nagarjuna, talking about inconstancy of views.
i had the same thing with Namdrol...and you got upset with me for it....
i don't dig the whole new age Buddhist stuff...and prefer classical training by real teachers...
everyone let Namdrol slide on by with a mish mash....
why?
and then you get upset cause you think Tmingy is a lil off on his empty view ....
it's quite possible, and i am starting to believe it...that TMingy has the view the Buddha left behind...
He sees it at is written and taught with the original stuff not the sci fi mahayana stuff...
not that i am discrediting mahayana ...but a lot of it is unbelievably sci fi....
my view has changed on the teachings as I grew...and was shown things
i believed in the lotus sutra ...word for word....i thought it was like a real event that certain people saw and heard...
if your going to believe Kumarajiva's mermaid stuff is real...then you should not get upset woth my statements of completion stage Holy alchemy stuff either....
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Re: The thicket of views
by Josef » Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:27 pm
Rael wrote:gregkavarnos wrote:Not talking about Nagarjuna, talking about inconstancy of views.
i had the same thing with Namdrol...and you got upset with me for it....
i don't dig the whole new age Buddhist stuff...and prefer classical training by real teachers...
everyone let Namdrol slide on by with a mish mash....
why?
and then you get upset cause you think Tmingy is a lil off on his empty view ....
it's quite possible, and i am starting to believe it...that TMingy has the view the Buddha left behind...
He sees it at is written and taught with the original stuff not the sci fi mahayana stuff...
not that i am discrediting mahayana ...but a lot of it is unbelievably sci fi....
my view has changed on the teachings as I grew...and was shown things
i believed in the lotus sutra ...word for word....i thought it was like a real event that certain people saw and heard...
if your going to believe Kumarajiva's mermaid stuff is real...then you should not get upset woth my statements of completion stage Holy alchemy stuff either....
If you have a hard time parsing parable from literal representation then Mahayana is most definitely not for you.
Both you and Tmingyur would most likely be much more comfortable in a Theravada setting.
My suggestion would be for you both to fully explore that realm and leave the Mahayana/Vajrayana to others.
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Re: The thicket of views
by ground » Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:31 pm
Nangwa wrote:My suggestion would be for you both to fully explore that realm and leave the Mahayana/Vajrayana to others.
We may find a compromise as to vajrayana but I will not negotiate Mahayana with you.
Kind regards
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Re: The thicket of views
by Josef » Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:38 pm
TMingyur wrote:Nangwa wrote:My suggestion would be for you both to fully explore that realm and leave the Mahayana/Vajrayana to others.
We may find a compromise as to vajrayana but I will not negotiate Mahayana with you.
Kind regards
I dont care.
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