The thicket of views

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

Re: The thicket of views

Postby muni » Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:11 am

TMingyur: "No I am far from claiming this, but it is a try to point at the difference between the Buddhas teachings and the teachings of what I call "philosophers"."

From one concept another comes about what we seem to percieve in that way and so we create our little limited world by rejection/acception.

no one labeling object is the problem but our own misperception, our own grasping.
muni
 
Posts: 2734
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: The thicket of views

Postby Sherab » Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:52 am

TMingyur wrote:
Sherab wrote:
TMingyur wrote:Dharma is 'wisdom' but cannot be learned by means of tenets and conceptual views taught by a teacher other than the Buddha although there is insistence that this may be so.

According to your view, we should ignore all the teachings given by the disciples of the Buddha. Sounds like a good example of "the thicket of views".


Unfounded conclusion.

Kind regards

My conclusion logically inferred from your statement. What is the basis of your reply of "unfounded conclusion"?
User avatar
Sherab
 
Posts: 695
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:28 am

Re: The thicket of views

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:04 am

Dear Retro,
you said:
retrofuturist wrote:This depicts very much an all-or-nothing form of enlightenment (what about lesser stream entrants, stream entrants, anagamis, arahants, sammasambuddhas, bodhisattvas etc.) To imply that anyone short of the "fully enlightened" is always espousing (unsubstantiated) views seems too binary to me.

But in this topic here viewtopic.php?f=66&t=2860&start=120 it was implied that some topics are beyond the range of the non-aryan mindstream or can only be approached by a bodhisattva of the sixth level and lower when they are in meditation. Well I don't know if any of us here fit into either of these categories so I just have to surmise that we are all expounding views here. Now whether they are substantiated or not is a issue that you have raised, maybe we could discuss it in this thread given its title and given that the thread had veered off track anyway (though it is kind of relevant).
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 7869
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: The thicket of views

Postby muni » Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:59 am

Just using Buddhism as another form of clinging, clinging to views=merely grasping to cosy fitting samsara game of Buddhism. the door for compassion and ones own grow of insight remains closed in limitation.

Some did not suffer enough, a friend said. At least not all so called Buddhists are with the aim to get rightenesses, or worldly fame-aim.

Of course: all teaching methods what fit me, is 'revealing' wisdom, what fits not is rubbish. strange, this is not so the same for my neighbour. :tongue:
muni
 
Posts: 2734
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: The thicket of views

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:43 pm

Views of the Thicket
thicket.jpg
thicket.jpg (16.51 KiB) Viewed 733 times
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 7869
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: The thicket of views

Postby ground » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:23 pm

muni wrote:TMingyur: "No I am far from claiming this, but it is a try to point at the difference between the Buddhas teachings and the teachings of what I call "philosophers"."

From one concept another comes about what we seem to percieve in that way and so we create our little limited world by rejection/acception.

no one labeling object is the problem but our own misperception, our own grasping.


Discerning difference does not necessarily go together with rejection/acception. Does it appear that way to you?

Perhaps "appropriate" and "non-appropriate" are better?

Kind regards
Last edited by ground on Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
ground
 
Posts: 1782
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:31 am

Re: The thicket of views

Postby Tara » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:10 pm

Cleaning in progress. Back to this post viewtopic.php?f=66&t=3746&start=60#p34195

TMingyur wrote:Well sorry then I cannot take it serious. So you may just refrain from responding to my questions. Especially if those are not adressed to you.


This is a public forum. Every post in every topic is there for any member to respond to, even those posts which have addressed to a specific individual (it seems).

The reason for the underlined section of the bolded out part above is to show how double standards arise (i.e. 'do as I say not as I do') please see this post viewtopic.php?f=66&t=3746&start=60#p34195 where a member responds to a post specifically addressed to another member viewtopic.php?f=66&t=3746&start=60#p34193. (Just because one does not appreciate or like a response to one's posting is no reason to lay down rules, especially if one does not abide by one's own rules thus establishing a double standard.)

Communicating/communication is difficult at the best of times. Layering one's own rules (double standards in this instance) on top of the existing Forum rules potentially creates causes for off topic posts some of which contain personal attacks and comments about other members adding to the chaos, all of which can result in the topic deviating from the OP and degenerating with Moderators having to spend time trawling through topics to weed out posts which are out of order.

Regards,
rt
Tara

**********************************************************
Maybe you collect a lot of important writings,
Major texts, personal instructions, private notes, whatever.
If you haven’t practiced, books won’t help you when you die.
Look at the mind – that’s my sincere advice.

**********************************************************
from Longchenpa's 30 Pieces of Sincere Advice

Mors certa — hora incerta
User avatar
Tara
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3685
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:59 am
Location: Here.

Re: The thicket of views

Postby Tara » Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:07 pm

Topic unlocked. Several off topic posts have been deleted (not all so as to retain some semblance of flow).

POLITE REMINDER

Please endeavour to stay on topic and refrain from personal attacks or making comments about other members.

Regards,
rt
Tara

**********************************************************
Maybe you collect a lot of important writings,
Major texts, personal instructions, private notes, whatever.
If you haven’t practiced, books won’t help you when you die.
Look at the mind – that’s my sincere advice.

**********************************************************
from Longchenpa's 30 Pieces of Sincere Advice

Mors certa — hora incerta
User avatar
Tara
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3685
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:59 am
Location: Here.

Re: The thicket of views

Postby muni » Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:44 pm

TMingyur wrote:
muni wrote:TMingyur: "No I am far from claiming this, but it is a try to point at the difference between the Buddhas teachings and the teachings of what I call "philosophers"."

From one concept another comes about what we seem to percieve in that way and so we create our little limited world by rejection/acception.

no one labeling object is the problem but our own misperception, our own grasping.


Discerning difference does not necessarily go together with rejection/acception. Does it appear that way to you?

Perhaps "appropriate" and "non-appropriate" are better?

Kind regards



While how all is, is not conditioned by any prefered choice, still appropriate teaching - mind in a way which gives fully confidence, trust to cut through all misperception to undo suffering.

the diversity of the teachings spread (also on internet) seems not to make it easier.
muni
 
Posts: 2734
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: The thicket of views

Postby ground » Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:49 pm

That was a good sweeping.


rainbowtara wrote:Please endeavour to stay on topic ...


Yes!

And returning to the OP's questions:
TMingyur wrote:Why is this? What makes non-differentiating, all-inclusive fabrications so attractive?


I consider the questions to have been answered exhaustively.


Thanks to all who participated ... passionately or dispassionately.


Kind regards
User avatar
ground
 
Posts: 1782
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:31 am

Re: The thicket of views

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:10 pm

TMingyur wrote:No I am far from claiming this, but it is a try to point at the difference between the Buddhas teachings and the teachings of what I call "philosophers".
You may be surprised to know that some of us here consider Nagarjuna a Buddha, Guru Padmasambhava a Buddha and our own teacher a Buddha (amongst others) so before you throw around your labels it might pay to be a bit more subtle (and justify your claims). Anyway, if I remember correctly in another thread you stated that you did not even consider Nagarjuna a philosopher.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 7869
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: The thicket of views

Postby ground » Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:21 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Anyway, if I remember correctly in another thread you stated that you did not even consider Nagarjuna a philosopher.


"Good" or "bad"?

Kind regards
User avatar
ground
 
Posts: 1782
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:31 am

Re: The thicket of views

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:50 pm

TMingyur wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:Anyway, if I remember correctly in another thread you stated that you did not even consider Nagarjuna a philosopher.


"Good" or "bad"?

Kind regards

You figure it out.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 7869
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: The thicket of views

Postby Rael » Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:59 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:Anyway, if I remember correctly in another thread you stated that you did not even consider Nagarjuna a philosopher.


"Good" or "bad"?

Kind regards

You figure it out.

Greg you can't get upset over other's views....
i don't think nagajuna was real...i started a thread on it..

it seems fishy to me :thinking:
Love Love Love
User avatar
Rael
 
Posts: 477
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:36 pm

Re: The thicket of views

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:02 pm

Not talking about Nagarjuna, talking about inconstancy of views.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 7869
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: The thicket of views

Postby Josef » Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:03 pm

Post removed by author. Off topic.
Josef
 
Posts: 1565
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: The thicket of views

Postby Rael » Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:18 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Not talking about Nagarjuna, talking about inconstancy of views.
:namaste:

i had the same thing with Namdrol...and you got upset with me for it....

i don't dig the whole new age Buddhist stuff...and prefer classical training by real teachers...

everyone let Namdrol slide on by with a mish mash....

why?

and then you get upset cause you think Tmingy is a lil off on his empty view ....

it's quite possible, and i am starting to believe it...that TMingy has the view the Buddha left behind...

He sees it at is written and taught with the original stuff not the sci fi mahayana stuff...

not that i am discrediting mahayana ...but a lot of it is unbelievably sci fi....

my view has changed on the teachings as I grew...and was shown things

i believed in the lotus sutra ...word for word....i thought it was like a real event that certain people saw and heard...

if your going to believe Kumarajiva's mermaid stuff is real...then you should not get upset woth my statements of completion stage Holy alchemy stuff either....
Love Love Love
User avatar
Rael
 
Posts: 477
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:36 pm

Re: The thicket of views

Postby Josef » Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:27 pm

Rael wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:Not talking about Nagarjuna, talking about inconstancy of views.
:namaste:

i had the same thing with Namdrol...and you got upset with me for it....

i don't dig the whole new age Buddhist stuff...and prefer classical training by real teachers...

everyone let Namdrol slide on by with a mish mash....

why?

and then you get upset cause you think Tmingy is a lil off on his empty view ....

it's quite possible, and i am starting to believe it...that TMingy has the view the Buddha left behind...

He sees it at is written and taught with the original stuff not the sci fi mahayana stuff...

not that i am discrediting mahayana ...but a lot of it is unbelievably sci fi....

my view has changed on the teachings as I grew...and was shown things

i believed in the lotus sutra ...word for word....i thought it was like a real event that certain people saw and heard...

if your going to believe Kumarajiva's mermaid stuff is real...then you should not get upset woth my statements of completion stage Holy alchemy stuff either....


If you have a hard time parsing parable from literal representation then Mahayana is most definitely not for you.
Both you and Tmingyur would most likely be much more comfortable in a Theravada setting.
My suggestion would be for you both to fully explore that realm and leave the Mahayana/Vajrayana to others.
Josef
 
Posts: 1565
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: The thicket of views

Postby ground » Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:31 pm

Nangwa wrote:My suggestion would be for you both to fully explore that realm and leave the Mahayana/Vajrayana to others.


We may find a compromise as to vajrayana but I will not negotiate Mahayana with you.


Kind regards
User avatar
ground
 
Posts: 1782
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:31 am

Re: The thicket of views

Postby Josef » Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:38 pm

TMingyur wrote:
Nangwa wrote:My suggestion would be for you both to fully explore that realm and leave the Mahayana/Vajrayana to others.


We may find a compromise as to vajrayana but I will not negotiate Mahayana with you.


Kind regards

I dont care.
Josef
 
Posts: 1565
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Open Dharma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Anders, smcj, theanarchist and 18 guests

>