See Nature, Become Buddha - Can You?

Re: See Nature, Become Buddha - Can You?

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:46 am

White Lotus wrote:how can you not see your nature?


This is our challenge. Well, among several I should say.

Because of our defilements we are currently unable to see our nature as it truly is. Although I'm in the Zen Buddhism section, I would recommend the book called, "How to See Yourself As You Truly Are" by His Holiness the Dalai Lama. This will give you a good feel and a good introduction :)

Best wishes,
Laura
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Re: See Nature, Become Buddha - Can You?

Postby m0rl0ck » Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:05 am

Astus wrote:So there are also people who believe that if nothing happens that's zazen, that's enlightenment. What is that good for?


I guess that depends on whether its a big fat juicy nothing or the regular kind.

""Before Enlightenment chop wood carry water, after Enlightenment, chop wood carry water."
Ride the horse in the direction its going.

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Re: See Nature, Become Buddha - Can You?

Postby Astus » Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:49 am

m0rl0ck,

In Buddhist terms, before enlightenment there are pancopadanaskandha (five aggregates with attachment), after enlightenment pancaskandha (five aggregates). Difference is in the attachment (upadana).
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: See Nature, Become Buddha - Can You?

Postby White Lotus » Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:45 pm

:namaste: actually seeing your nature in order to become buddha is complicating the issue a little. you dont even need to do that. actually you dont need to do or be anything other than what you already are.

everything is enlightened enlightenment. attachment is itslelf an aspect of tathata and is pure enlightenment. why worry about anything... its already absolutely perfect. just as it is.

the defilements are the jewels in the buddhas hair, anger being perfectly enlightened, hatred being completely pure. everything is just so. even suffering is perfectly enlightened. we seek to avoid anger and hatred in our practice because it causes suffering, nontheless, still... even suffering is perfectly enlightened, and its effect will always ultimately be beneficial.

if you wish to polish the brick, then polish it, but you should know that it is already a perfect brick.

best wishes, White Lotus.

all is good, all is well.
this pain i feel will pass.
why fight, why struggle,
just let it be... and if we
do fight and we do struggle,
it is perfectly so.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: See Nature, Become Buddha - Can You?

Postby Dae Bi » Sat May 01, 2010 1:21 am

White Lotus

....and if we
do fight and we do struggle,
it is perfectly so.

If this was true, then why is practice able to change this?
David


First there is a mountain then there is no mountain then there is.
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Re: See Nature, Become Buddha - Can You?

Postby White Lotus » Sat May 01, 2010 8:14 pm

:namaste:
Dae bi, good question, a toughie. i will try to answer it without preparation.

why is practice able to change this?


practice is to remove suffering, suffering is difficulty, difficulty is in what people do. suffering is neither here nor there (not grounded in external circumstances.)

through ones actions one is able to reduce suffering. the reduction of suffering is not conventionally enlightenment, only a fruit of practice. even within enlightenment one may still suffer illness and discomfort owing to ones past actions...

having said this!!! i must say that enlightenment always has been, some say it comes of its self. it has been said that "spring comes, the grass grows naturally of its own accord." i say its always been there. without seeking and without waiting. no doubt, sometimes practice is important, but it could also hinder someone from realizing what is -(not that this matters) - already was and will always be... perfect enlightenment found in and expressed by all. to seek the path of enlightenment is to only seek what already is, though such seeking may reduce suffering, ultimately even suffering is pure perfect enlightenment, and not only Nirvanah.

i am surprised that the buddha did not see all as perfect enlightenment... at least that is what some of the Sangha indicates in its teaching.

i only read today in Tozan's Transmission of the Lamp (chapter 1 Shakyamuni)...
(paraphrase) "When the Buddha saw the morning star he was perfectly enlightened. at that moment He, the world and all beings attained the way."

could this be indicating that the buddha when he 'attained' the unattainable attained realization that all beings had always been perfectly enlightened? or does it mean that his observation of all beings as endowed with buddha nature secured their enlightenment.

I dont know.

best wishes, Tom.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: See Nature, Become Buddha - Can You?

Postby Dae Bi » Sat May 01, 2010 11:24 pm

Tom, I think you're intentions are right, however I think your methodology is flawed. How can one understand what enlightenment is, unless one has this experience.
David


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Re: See Nature, Become Buddha - Can You?

Postby m0rl0ck » Sun May 02, 2010 1:29 pm

Dae Bi wrote:White Lotus

....and if we
do fight and we do struggle,
it is perfectly so.

If this was true, then why is practice able to change this?


Oh boy :) i love essay questions, can i take a shot?

Practice reduces struggle and suffering because it makes you a more unified being. People get caught in a welter of expectations, judgements, intentions etc about themselves because they are going around looking at themselves as an object, a personality that they are judging and isnt behaving the way they would like it to. So you are split in two, on the one side the you with expectations and judgements and on the other a you that just isnt measuring up, darn it. "I shouldnt be having these lustful thoughts", "I shouldnt have said that." "Oh god, im a terrible person because i hate my neighbor." "Oh no i broke a precept im a terrible buddhist" etc ad nauseam.
Sincere, go for broke practice (instead of just sitting there waiting for something to happen), requires that you get to know yourself, even embrace yourself, so that the judging you and the actual you become closer, more unifed. You become more peaceful, more confident, more comfortable in your own skin. The actual you and the ideal you are more nearly the same so you are living a more unified life. As you develop understanding and compassion for yourself, that naturally carries over to others because you start to realize that they are like you and that they have the same struggles. At this point the precepts, rather than being extrinsic "shoulds" and "oughts" start to arise naturally from inside you.

But you could take the view that you were fundementally ok at the beginning of the process anyway, because there isnt really a you. If nothing has a self nature and all is empty and samsara = nirvana, who and what is there to change? Things evolve the way they evolve and you take up practice because thats just the way it is and whats happening now.

Otoh, i could be entirely full of it :) caveat emptor.

EDIT: by "go for broke" i didnt mean anything masochistic, just doing the practice (whatever yours is) with sincerity and surrender to the method as it was given to you.
Ride the horse in the direction its going.

~Werner Erhard
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Re: See Nature, Become Buddha - Can You?

Postby White Lotus » Sun May 02, 2010 4:14 pm

:namaste: Dear Dae Bi,

How can one understand what enlightenment is, unless one has this experience.


there is no enlightenment to be had, there being no enlightenment, how can there be an experience? it is utterly mundane mind, totally normal mind that is perfect enlightenment. theres nothing in it.

because no one ever 'had' enlightenment, not even the buddha. to speak of being enlightened is for those who experience something... a state. to have experienced nothing in particular, other than this normal mind and ordinary life is to have experience of that which is not... perfective enlightenment. this experience is not an experience, not being an experience it encompasses all experience.

i only speak from my own understanding, you must work out things for yourself. how do you know that i am not utterly incorrect in my assumptions.

if i attach to the notion "i am enlightened" i attach to a state. true enlightenment is not a state to be attained. all states are impermanent. only that which is no thing at all is not touched by cause and effect.

Dae bi... when you saw your own nature for the first time... what difference did it make? you were enlightened before you saw your own nature... when you saw your own nature and still now you have seen your own nature.

what we are talking about here is normal mind. this normal mind is extrordinary, but most people dont recognise that because of ego. enlightenment is complete normality.

if i say that i am not enlightened i say that no one is enlightened. if i say that i am enlightened i say that everyone is enlightened. saying that there is no enlightenment is saying that everyone has 'this'.

'this is it'.

if you are seeking enlightenment, you are only seeking what everyone already has. its like polishing a brick. you can really get into it, but ultimately a brick is just a brick. why polish it? or why not polish it (if you enjoy the polishing).

when you have attained everything there is not a single thing you have attained. this non attainment brings with it peace and stability.

its good that people are challenging what i have said. some of the things ive said are pretty radical and probably downright confusing. at the end of the day, you need to form your own opinion.

as for me i dont say that i am enlightened, but this may have something to do with the fact that there is no 'state' called enlightenment to be had. only normality, but 'this' normality is supreme enlightenment.

hope this isnt confusing! but it doesnt matter if it is, you are already fully enlightened, you were even before you saw your nature, which is the first thing you saw, even before you were born.

best wishes, White Lotus.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: See Nature, Become Buddha - Can You?

Postby Astus » Sun May 02, 2010 6:49 pm

White Lotus,

You talk a lot about enlightenment and how that is the same as not being enlightened, saying that everyone is enlightened, while at the same time they're deluded by their egos. Actually, what does all this have to do with Buddhism? Or at least, how does that philosophy make anyone a happier person?

In your evasive manner you not just don't state or deny anything exactly but it appears to be irrelevant to the whole issue raised about Zen tenets.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: See Nature, Become Buddha - Can You?

Postby White Lotus » Mon May 03, 2010 5:55 pm

:namaste: Astus, the idea i have been most interested in is the idea that everyone is liberated. though it would seem that this is unlikely in view of human cruelty. an element of egoism. it seems that bubble has burst.

thank you and thanks to Huseng for intelligent questions. now in light of these questions i will have to re-evaluate.

best wishes, White Lotus.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: See Nature, Become Buddha - Can You?

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Mon May 03, 2010 6:48 pm

Dear White Lotus,

If I may be so bold, I'd like to offer up a bit for thoughts.

It is true that according to Buddhist teachings not all sentient beings are currently enlightened. For this reason, the Buddhist path is full of study, practice, meditation, and if we're lucky some spiritual fellowship and an excellent teacher.

I know you've said you're having a bit of fun here, and that's okay. We need to have some fun and even exercise our mental facilities. But there's no way in the world you can think yourself into an enlightened state or use your intellect, no matter how gifted you may be, to transform into an enlightened being.

It's my suggestion that if you really are interested in Buddhism, you consider taking on some practice, study, and a search for a teacher (if that's something that will work for you). Depending upon the kind of Buddhism you practice a teacher may be entirely essential.

Counting breaths (in meditation) and reading some books on Buddhism is a wonderful place to start. There are many excellent Mahayana authors (or Theravada if that is a road you travel at some point). I feel 100% certain that our members here would be happy to suggest books that introduce Buddhist concepts at the very, very important elemental level. These basics absolutely can't be overlooked in my humble opinion. If we jump straight into embracing sunyata we may end up stuck in a place of mistaken bliss or "white darkness."

I wish you very good luck in your venture. I sincerely hope that you don't mind my two cents here. Your intellectual rounds are indeed interesting, but I highly doubt that they'll lead you to a place of greater peace or happiness. And that's what most people really want :)

Best wishes,
Laura
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Re: See Nature, Become Buddha - Can You?

Postby White Lotus » Tue May 04, 2010 6:11 pm

:namaste: thank you Laura for your beautiful post. full of compassion and hope for those who are struggling in the round of life and death.

what more can i say!

love, White Lotus. x
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: See Nature, Become Buddha - Can You?

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Wed May 05, 2010 4:37 am

White Lotus wrote::namaste: thank you Laura for your beautiful post. full of compassion and hope for those who are struggling in the round of life and death.

what more can i say!

love, White Lotus. x


How kind of you White Lotus, thanks :)
Best wishes to you on your journey...

:namaste:
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Re: See Nature, Become Buddha - Can You?

Postby LastLegend » Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:42 pm

No, for my capacity is low. If my capacity is similar to that of Hui Neng's or his students', then I can get instant enlightened. So that's why I have to hit the Sutras and practice Pure Land. For those who think they can reach emptiness through thinking (illusion), good luck. Like for instant, when they hear of emptiness, they would imagine emptiness with no thoughts. Still stuck in forms no matter what if one uses thinking when meditation is actually to leave using thinking...but if your capacity is suitable for Chan, then go head get a teacher and practice.

Wishful thinking
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

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―Listen! Those of you who devote yourselves to the Dharma
must not be afraid of losing your bodies and your lives―
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Re: See Nature, Become Buddha - Can You?

Postby zengammon » Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:28 am

See Nature, Become Buddha- Can You?

Astus wrote:Simple and straightforward. This is all there is to seeing nature. By attaining it buddhahood is at hand. So here are two questions to discuss:

1. What hinders one from realising the nature of mind?
2. What stops one who has seen the nature from completing buddhahood?


It's inevitable--but don't hold your breath!

1) Delusion, particularly of Self. And Karma, long history of defilements that make progress difficult. And, misreading the map.

2) The deep roots of the long-held habits. (Sudden Enlightenment, Gradual Cultivation)

John
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Re: See Nature, Become Buddha - Can You?

Postby ground » Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:23 am

"Nature of mind" ... is this a zen concept too? I thought it were a tibetan invention ...

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Re: See Nature, Become Buddha - Can You?

Postby Astus » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:58 am

Nature of mind/mind nature is citta-prakrti in Sanskrit, 心性 in Chinese. The Ratnagotra/Uttaratantra shastra is the main source of the doctrine of buddha-nature and it exists both in Chinese and in Tibetan besides the Sanskrit original.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: See Nature, Become Buddha - Can You?

Postby ground » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:36 pm

Astus wrote:Nature of mind/mind nature is citta-prakrti in Sanskrit, 心性 in Chinese. The Ratnagotra/Uttaratantra shastra is the main source of the doctrine of buddha-nature and it exists both in Chinese and in Tibetan besides the Sanskrit original.


Ah thanks ... does that mean that "citta-prakrti" is equated with "buddha-nature" or that the term is found exclusively in sutras or shastras belonging to the third turning?

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Re: See Nature, Become Buddha - Can You?

Postby Astus » Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:15 pm

TMingyur wrote:Ah thanks ... does that mean that "citta-prakrti" is equated with "buddha-nature" or that the term is found exclusively in sutras or shastras belonging to the third turning?


I don't know if the term is exclusive to teachings on tathagatagarbha but in that context it is indeed buddha-nature, the originally pure essence.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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