The thicket of views

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

Re: The thicket of views

Postby ground » Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:15 am

Nangwa wrote:Ha ha.
It wasn't an opinion actually.
You are certainly right on the point that we don't agree on things.
My rationale however is usually pretty sound and Im not a fan of "partisan views".
The simple truth is that your posts, attitude, and evaluations of dharma are juvenile.
Ever considered that the reason you so often end up in heated disagreements lies somewhere other than everybody else?


I see no heated disgreements. What I see are disagreements. But I do not track those to "somebody" or "someone" even if our words appplied may erroneously indicate this.


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Re: The thicket of views

Postby ground » Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:31 am

Anders Honore wrote:
TMingyur wrote:...


Dude, for someone so into 'real' wisdom, you seem to have so little lightheartedness about you. You have too much too learn still (a wonderful thing) to go around being so assertive about what is and is not wisdom, genuine practise etc. These habits just inhibit the genuine and humbling spirit of the wayseeker. Lighten up, have a laugh at the silliness of all your accumulated folly (mine cracks me up on a regular basis), don't take what you think you know so seriously and endeavour to study and learn from all things without becoming a 'wiser' or more 'knowledgeable' person/wannabe authority. You'll be better for it in the long run and you';; enjoy the journey a lot more to boot.

edit: Wrong post quoted.


Thank you for your advice. I assume that heartfelt concern is the cause for this and appreciate that you want to lightend me up since you are assuming a lack of lightheartedness. But there is neither lightheartedness nor lack of it. Dharma is serious but not oppressive. Sometimes there is consternation about the fetters displaying themselves in unexpected contexts. But this is wholesome and an appeal to mindfulness.
Dharma is 'wisdom' but cannot be learned by means of tenets and conceptual views taught by a teacher other than the Buddha although there is insistence that this may be so.
So although you are right that there is "still much to learn" there is not really much to learn in the conventional sense.
BTW often conceited talk applies "much to learn".

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Re: The thicket of views

Postby ground » Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:38 am

To summarize:

It appears as if once more a try to investigate has been mis-conceived by some as an attack on what volition wants to establish but what are actually only conditioned views and tenets clung to. But if this is the lesson learned then the conclusion has to be that some sort of Buddhism produces limitations. But of course this is just a saying because it is not the "Buddhism" that "produces".

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Last edited by ground on Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The thicket of views

Postby Josef » Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:42 am

TMingyur wrote:To summarize:

It appears as if once more a try to investigate has been mis-conceived by some as an attack on what volition wants to establish but what are actually only conditioned views and tenets clung to. But if this is the lesson learned then the conclusion has to be that some sort of Buddhism produces limitations.

Kind regards

Nope.
Everyone gets what you are trying to say.
The only one clinging to something is you.
The lesson that should be learned has been well expressed.
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Re: The thicket of views

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Apr 10, 2011 8:32 am

Back to the OP
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Savatthi in the Eastern Monastery, the palace of Migara's mother. Then in the evening, Ven. Ananda, coming out of seclusion, went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One: "On one occasion, when the Blessed One was staying among the Sakyans in a Sakyan town named Nagaraka, there — face-to-face with the Blessed One — I heard this, face-to-face I learned this: 'I now remain fully in a dwelling of emptiness.' Did I hear that correctly, learn it correctly, attend to it correctly, remember it correctly?"
[The Buddha:] "Yes, Ananda, you heard that correctly, learned it correctly, attended to it correctly, remembered it correctly. Now, as well as before, I remain fully in a dwelling of emptiness. Just as this palace of Migara's mother is empty of elephants, cattle, & mares, empty of gold & silver, empty of assemblies of women & men, and there is only this non-emptiness — the singleness based on the community of monks; even so, Ananda, a monk — not attending to the perception1 of village, not attending to the perception of human being — attends to the singleness based on the perception of wilderness. His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its perception of wilderness.
"He discerns that 'Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the perception of village are not present. Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the perception of human being are not present. There is only this modicum of disturbance: the singleness based on the perception of wilderness.' He discerns that 'This mode of perception is empty of the perception of village. This mode of perception is empty of the perception of human being. There is only this non-emptiness: the singleness based on the perception of wilderness.' Thus he regards it as empty of whatever is not there. Whatever remains, he discerns as present: 'There is this.' And so this, his entry into emptiness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, & pure.
MN 121Cula-suññata Sutta The Lesser Discourse on Emptiness
"Then again, the disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'Sensuality here & now; sensuality in lives to come; sensual perceptions here & now; sensual perceptions in lives to come; forms here & now; forms in lives to come; form-perceptions here & now; form-perceptions in lives to come; perceptions of the imperturbable: all are perceptions. Where they cease without remainder: that is peaceful, that is exquisite, i.e., the dimension of nothingness.' Practicing & frequently abiding in this way, his mind acquires confidence in that dimension. There being full confidence, he either attains the dimension of nothingness now or else is committed to discernment. With the break-up of the body, after death, it's possible that this leading-on consciousness of his will go to the dimension of nothingness. This is declared to be the first practice conducive to the dimension of nothingness.
"Then again, the disciple of the noble ones, having gone into the wilderness, to the root of a tree, or into an empty dwelling, considers this: 'This is empty of self or of anything pertaining to self.' Practicing & frequently abiding in this way, his mind acquires confidence in that dimension. There being full confidence, he either attains the dimension of nothingness now or else is committed to discernment. With the break-up of the body, after death, it's possible that this leading-on consciousness of his will go to the dimension of nothingness. This is declared to be the second practice conducive to the dimension of nothingness.
"Then again, the disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'I am not anyone's anything anywhere; nor is anything of mine in anyone anywhere.' Practicing & frequently abiding in this way, his mind acquires confidence in that dimension. There being full confidence, he either attains the dimension of nothingness now or else is committed to discernment. With the break-up of the body, after death, it's possible that this leading-on consciousness of his will go to the dimension of nothingness. This is declared to be the third practice conducive to the dimension of nothingness.
MN 106Aneñja-sappaya Sutta Conducive to the Imperturbable
"But there is this (mental) dwelling discovered by the Tathagata where, not attending to any themes, he enters & remains in internal emptiness. If, while he is dwelling there by means of this dwelling, he is visited by monks, nuns, lay men, lay women, kings, royal ministers, sectarians & their disciples, then — with his mind bent on seclusion, tending toward seclusion, inclined toward seclusion, aiming at seclusion, relishing renunciation, having destroyed those qualities that are the basis for mental fermentation — he converses with them only as much is necessary for them to take their leave.
MN 122 Maha-suññata Sutta The Greater Discourse on Emptiness
Then Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "It is said that the world is empty, the world is empty, lord. In what respect is it said that the world is empty?"
"Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self: Thus it is said, Ananda, that the world is empty. And what is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self? The eye is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Forms... Eye-consciousness... Eye-contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self.
"The ear is empty...
"The nose is empty...
"The tongue is empty...
"The body is empty...
"The intellect is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Ideas... Intellect-consciousness... Intellect-contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Thus it is said that the world is empty."
SN 35.85 Suñña Sutta Empty
That damn Buddha propagating all those pernicious views, he should take some lessons from TM on the reality of the situation.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: The thicket of views

Postby ground » Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:43 am

1st quote:
gregkavarnos wrote:Back to the OP
He discerns that 'This mode of perception is empty of the perception of village. This mode of perception is empty of the perception of human being. There is only this non-emptiness: the singleness based on the perception of wilderness.' Thus he regards it as empty of whatever is not there. Whatever remains, he discerns as present: 'There is this.' And so this, his entry into emptiness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, & pure.
MN 121Cula-suññata Sutta The Lesser Discourse on Emptiness

This is an allusion to direct experience/perception being empty of fabrications. So this is a very practical and discernible sort "emptiness of ..." like the purse being "empty of money".

2nd quote
gregkavarnos wrote:
"Then again, the disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'Sensuality here & now; sensuality in lives to come; sensual perceptions here & now; sensual perceptions in lives to come; forms here & now; forms in lives to come; form-perceptions here & now; form-perceptions in lives to come; perceptions of the imperturbable: all are perceptions. Where they cease without remainder: that is peaceful, that is exquisite, i.e., the dimension of nothingness.'

This is about nothingness absorption.

3rd quote
gregkavarnos wrote:
"But there is this (mental) dwelling discovered by the Tathagata where, not attending to any themes, he enters & remains in internal emptiness. ...
MN 122 Maha-suññata Sutta The Greater Discourse on Emptiness

This is about the mind not taking up anything, being empty of fabrication.

4th quote
gregkavarnos wrote:
Then Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "It is said that the world is empty, the world is empty, lord. In what respect is it said that the world is empty?"
"Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self: Thus it is said, Ananda, that the world is empty. And what is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self? The eye is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Forms... Eye-consciousness... Eye-contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self.
"The ear is empty...
"The nose is empty...
"The tongue is empty...
"The body is empty...
"The intellect is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Ideas... Intellect-consciousness... Intellect-contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Thus it is said that the world is empty."
SN 35.85 Suñña Sutta Empty
That damn Buddha propagating all those pernicious views, he should take some lessons from TM on the reality of the situation.
:namaste:

This is about that there is no self, no "I" and "mine" but only the aggregates.




So all these quotes do not provide any evidence for the application of the term in the context of objectivieed phenomena.


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Re: The thicket of views

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:12 am

TMingyur wrote:This is an allusion to direct experience/perception being empty of fabrications. So this is a very practical and discernible sort "emptiness of ..." like the purse being "empty of money".
Yup! I agree 100%, it is still an instance of emptiness though.

This is about nothingness absorption.
Yup! Another instance of emptiness that the Buddha alludes to.

This is about the mind not taking up anything, being empty of fabrication.
Right again! I must admit that you are good at pointing out the obvious so I too will indulge: a third instance of the Buddha talking about a facet of emptiness.

This is about that there is no self, no "I" and "mine" but only the aggregates.
Right again! Four out of four! This Sutta reminds me a lot of the Heart Sutra.

So all these quotes do not provide any evidence for the application of the term in the context of objectivieed phenomena.
Really? The sense of self based on the aggregates; mental objects; and fabrications are not attempts by sentient beings to objectivise apparent phenomenon based on a misperception of presence, which is all due to ignorance of dependent origination? Don't bother answering, it's a rhetorical question.
:namaste:
Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: The thicket of views

Postby ground » Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:29 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
So all these quotes do not provide any evidence for the application of the term in the context of objectivieed phenomena.
Really? The sense of self based on the aggregates; mental objects; and fabrications are not attempts by sentient beings to objectivise apparent phenomenon based on a misperception of presence which is all due to ignorance of dependent origination? Don't bother answering, it's a rhetorical question.
:namaste:


There is no agent experiencing. Period. And that does not legitimate any of the non-differentiating all-inclusive fabrications listed in the OP.

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Re: The thicket of views

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:37 pm

Tsk, tsk, tsk! Looks like somebody blundered out of the thicket of views only to fall into the cesspit of nihilism!
What a crying shame!
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: The thicket of views

Postby plwk » Sun Apr 10, 2011 5:12 pm

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Re: The thicket of views

Postby Rael » Sun Apr 10, 2011 5:46 pm

"Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self: Thus it is said, Ananda, that the world is empty. And what is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self? The eye is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Forms... Eye-consciousness... Eye-contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self.


This self Our Lord is referring to...
is non other than inherent existence...

if you think it is to do with a word similar to myself....welll....

words from the ancient ones need the instruction from a Kaya Body to help one understand....winkety wink.
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Re: The thicket of views

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:42 am

Greetings Greg,

gregkavarnos wrote:Tsk, tsk, tsk! Looks like somebody blundered out of the thicket of views only to fall into the cesspit of nihilism!
What a crying shame!

The Buddha was also accused of this by those who did not understand the subtlety of his views.

A little caution in relationship to such accusations may be in order.

Maitri,
Retro. :)
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Re: The thicket of views

Postby Sherab » Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:51 am

TMingyur wrote:Dharma is 'wisdom' but cannot be learned by means of tenets and conceptual views taught by a teacher other than the Buddha although there is insistence that this may be so.

According to your view, we should ignore all the teachings given by the disciples of the Buddha. Sounds like a good example of "the thicket of views".
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Re: The thicket of views

Postby Rael » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:38 am

When i found out that Mahayana teachings were never verbally taught by Our Lord Buddha historically...
or what ever....the whole AAAARGGGGHHHH WHAT IS GOING ON HERE......
really threw me for a loop.....

then the whole Nichiren, Tien Tai guys actually thought the Lotus Sutra was verbatim and happened as it is read....

Like these revered guys...some people think Nichiren is the primordial Buddha and Tien Tai was like enlightened...and yet these guys were unaware that it was fiction meant to teach stuff.....

some sort of sci fi weirdness that a myriad of people witnessed but others could not see happeneing...then time line...they thought the last 8 years of Our Lord's life this Sutra unfolded....

ok i went a lil funny....well maybe more than a lil funny...and not funny ha ha or funny is he gay?....
i mean really weirded out funny.....like big WTF's all around....and then a sort of anger came over me//// cause of Gakki weirdnessess////

But i came to terms with the fact Buddhism is an ongoing Teacher for sentients....

and if your going to include stuff that we know for sure never actually happened but has value....

like the 900 year old King of the Snake People guy.....you best get used to in future other teachings such as Holy Alchemey and adjusted Kabbalah.tuff cookies if you don't get it :rolling:

..and even.....the dreaded Namdrol the Great guy.....

talk about a sticky wicket....

or thicket...

disclaimer: the whole Namdrol the Great is a Raelesque metaphor for all these Yankees making a living off the thing...some good, some horrid..all of em real :quoteunquote: scary :quoteunquote: to think about for moi.....cause of Real's rules :rules:

oh and then there is this guy Greg the Terrible.....not the Greek guy that gives good post here...the other Greg..
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Re: The thicket of views

Postby ground » Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:28 am

Sherab wrote:
TMingyur wrote:Dharma is 'wisdom' but cannot be learned by means of tenets and conceptual views taught by a teacher other than the Buddha although there is insistence that this may be so.

According to your view, we should ignore all the teachings given by the disciples of the Buddha. Sounds like a good example of "the thicket of views".


Unfounded conclusion.

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Re: The thicket of views

Postby ground » Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:29 am

gregkavarnos wrote:Tsk, tsk, tsk! Looks like somebody blundered out of the thicket of views only to fall into the cesspit of nihilism!
What a crying shame!
:namaste:


Unfounded conclusion too.

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Re: The thicket of views

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:50 am

Dear TM,
There is no agent experiencing.
There is an agent experiencing.
There is and there is not an agent experiencing.
There neither is nor is not an agent experiencing.

The four extreme views.
Your outburst:
There is no agent experiencing. Period...
is a clear exmple of the nihilist (the first stated) position.

Dear Retro,
The Buddha was also accused of this by those who did not understand the subtlety of his views.
The Buddha did not espouse views, he taught Dha...ma. TM is espousing views (as are all of us here since we are not fully enlightened). There was nothing subtle in TM's outburst, it was an attempt to "fight" his way out of the corner that he is constantly painting himself into. The Sutta quotes (and the entire teachings themselves) clearly show that the Buddha taught on Sunnata (in various guises) and its utilisation as an object of meditation.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: The thicket of views

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:27 am

Greetings Greg,
gregkavarnos wrote:TM is espousing views (as are all of us here since we are not fully enlightened).

This depicts very much an all-or-nothing form of enlightenment (what about lesser stream entrants, stream entrants, anagamis, arahants, sammasambuddhas, bodhisattvas etc.) To imply that anyone short of the "fully enlightened" is always espousing (unsubstantiated) views seems too binary to me.

Maitri,
Retro. :)
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Re: The thicket of views

Postby ground » Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:28 am

gregkavarnos wrote:Dear TM,
There is no agent experiencing.
There is an agent experiencing.
There is and there is not an agent experiencing.
There neither is nor is not an agent experiencing.

The four extreme views.
Your outburst:
There is no agent experiencing. Period...
is a clear exmple of the nihilist (the first stated) position.


If there are conceivings of "existence" and "non-existence" then this may appear as nihilist

However ...

But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


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Re: The thicket of views

Postby muni » Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:43 am

TMingyur wrote:
    - all is emptiness
    - everything is empty
    - emptiness is the ultimate truth
    - the ultimate (goal) is non-duality
    - everything is mind only (or produced by mind)
    - all is illusion
    ...
and so on and so forth.

These or similar formulated fabrications are uttered again and again.

Why is this? What makes non-differentiating, all-inclusive fabrications so attractive?


Kind regards


Concepts about methods to break through/see the falseness of our concepts. To be free. (Ants know it all as well).
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