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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:56 pm 
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I've been as critical as anyone of New Agey product lines that are presented as Buddhist teaching but aren't. Here's an example.

viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2061&start=0&hilit=kuji#p14097

These situations are problematic if people get stuck in them, and develop long-term confusions and attachments as a consequence (the confusion of thinking one is enlightened when one is really not, for instance). I still think it would be better to work an honest job than to try to make an easy living selling phony Dharma. But it may well be that, for some, there is no getting stuck: they get started, read the fine print, and move on shortly after. If you're in El Paso, Texas, say, you might spend a moment or two here...

http://www.sukhidevi.com

...before you move on and get settled in practice here:

http://www.ctbcc.com

Getting acquainted with Buddhist practice and Buddhist cultures can be tricky for many. I'm speculating that a transitional phase might be useful, although I'm not comfortable with the profit/prophet motive behind some of these in-between groups. I've seen this happen in Tendai-shu in North America, where people come in with a head full of ideas they've absorbed from different martial arts manuals and YouTube videos on Reiki and Instant Karma, which bridge the gap from Guy-On-The-Street-Mind to In-The-Know-Practitioner-Mind.

Thoughts?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:56 pm 
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Jikan wrote:
I've been as critical as anyone of New Agey product lines that are presented as Buddhist teaching but aren't. Here's an example.

viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2061&start=0&hilit=kuji#p14097

These situations are problematic if people get stuck in them, and develop long-term confusions and attachments as a consequence (the confusion of thinking one is enlightened when one is really not, for instance). I still think it would be better to work an honest job than to try to make an easy living selling phony Dharma. But it may well be that, for some, there is no getting stuck: they get started, read the fine print, and move on shortly after. If you're in El Paso, Texas, say, you might spend a moment or two here...

http://www.sukhidevi.com

...before you move on and get settled in practice here:

http://www.ctbcc.com

Getting acquainted with Buddhist practice and Buddhist cultures can be tricky for many. I'm speculating that a transitional phase might be useful, although I'm not comfortable with the profit/prophet motive behind some of these in-between groups. I've seen this happen in Tendai-shu in North America, where people come in with a head full of ideas they've absorbed from different martial arts manuals and YouTube videos on Reiki and Instant Karma, which bridge the gap from Guy-On-The-Street-Mind to In-The-Know-Practitioner-Mind.

Thoughts?


This is another person bounced from e-sangha for failing to satisfy ordination and or permission to teach requirements.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:01 pm 
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There were a number of those that had some point of reference in martial arts disciplines, like the ones I site here. I don't have an explanation for that.

It's very difficult to have a reasonable discussion with someone who has deluded herself or himself into thinking he/she is completely enlightened and hence has nothing more to learn. Discussion forums make that personal problem into public knowledge. Meltdown ensues.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:49 am 
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What separates Buddhism from non-Buddhism? On one hand there are criteria for the teaching, on the other for the intention. The teaching can be external and internal, external can be in agreement or disagreement with Buddhism. If it disagrees with Buddhism it should be refuted, if it agrees it should be submitted as an external teaching not leading to liberation. However, if intention is considered, it can be that even if one is interested in internal doctrines many don't care about liberation on any level. So there isn't much to distinguish external in agreement teachings from internal ones. This is called the path of humans and gods.

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"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
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"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:10 am 
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Quote:
...anyone of New Agey product lines that are presented as Buddhist teaching
Like the old saying...'When the demand stops, the killing will too...'?
If one decides that the rainbow's pot of gold is more satisfying than the Buddha's Wish Fulfilling Jewel, what can others do?
There's only so much of showing the horse/ox/cow to the water source but the drinking part is on the onus of the horse/ox/cow... :shrug:

Until then I guess it's back to what He explained here...
Quote:
http://www.mahindarama.com/e-tipitaka/D ... a/dn-1.htm
“Monks, if anyone should speak in disparagement of me, of the Dhamma or of the Sangha, you should not be angry, resentful or upset on that account.
If you were to be angry or displeased at such disparagement, that would only be a hindrance to you.
For if others disparage me, the Dhamma or the Sangha, and you are angry or displeased, can you recognize whether what they say is right or not?”
‘No, Lord.’
“If others disparage me, the Dhamma or the Sangha, then you must explain what is incorrect as being incorrect”, saying:
‘That is incorrect, that is false, that is not our way, that is not found among us.’

“But, monks, if others should speak in praise of me, of the Dhamma or of the Sangha, you should not on that account be pleased, happy or elated.
If you were to be pleased, happy or elated at such praise, that would only be a hindrance to you.”
If others praise me, the Dhamma or the Sangha, you should acknowledge the truth of what is true, saying:
‘That is correct, that is right, that is our way, that is found among us’.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:26 pm 
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I'm inclined to agree with Astus & plwk here.

The open question to me has to do with the value of engaging with these teachers and groups. Public criticism is useful if it's easy for the average Jane Spiritseeker on the street to find. If it's not readily accessible, it's not going to put a light in the attic. Reaching out and communicating privately can yield unexpected results, including cases where people actually learn from each other. :cheers: Contrariwise, one may well lend a kind of legitimacy-by-association to these projects simply by trying to carry on a kind of dialogue with them. Not engaging at all, simply ignoring it, would be an option if there weren't so many of them and if I didn't have friends and fellow-travelers who take certain of this stuff seriously. So I don't know how best to help, that's the thing.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 2:41 pm 
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I think the straight way is to point out what is actually taught within Buddhism and explain what that is the Buddhist teaching. It is rarely necessary to criticise other teachings except when they are harmful, but not being Buddhist, well, that's not a sin. Just see how many non-Buddhist rituals and concepts could hang around Buddhism in Asia. Until they don't hurt there's little to worry about. The important thing is to make clear what is the path to nirvana and what is not.

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"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 2:58 pm 
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Thanks, Astus, that's helpful.

I think it's useful to point out what is Buddhism and what isn't when in conversation with someone who claims to teach Buddhism, or who seeks to learn it.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:39 am 
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Astus wrote:
... but not being Buddhist, well, that's not a sin.


It may be an infraction to engage in non-buddhist teachings for one who has taken refuge depending on the contex of her/his refuge and the consequences may be accordingly.

Kind regards


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:11 pm 
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Astus wrote:
What separates Buddhism from non-Buddhism? On one hand there are criteria for the teaching, on the other for the intention. The teaching can be external and internal, external can be in agreement or disagreement with Buddhism. If it disagrees with Buddhism it should be refuted, if it agrees it should be submitted as an external teaching not leading to liberation. However, if intention is considered, it can be that even if one is interested in internal doctrines many don't care about liberation on any level. So there isn't much to distinguish external in agreement teachings from internal ones. This is called the path of humans and gods.


i had my "need to be refuted days"...lol

Look your path is going to be held over many lifetimes...

this time we all have the opportunity to study under authenticated Tibetan Gurus...
These western teachers are good ...but why bother....

anyway the Dharma permeates us all...we need to get over what is to be refuted and not and leave that up to the Bodhisattvas

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:45 am 
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Rael wrote:
this time we all have the opportunity to study under authenticated Tibetan Gurus...
These western teachers are good ...but why bother....
A teacher does not need to be Tibetan to be a good teacher (they may be from Bhutan for example :tongue: ). Tibetans are not necessarily good teachers. Of course a Guru needs to be authenticated but they don't need to be of one ethnicity or another. I would, for example, have no problem with having Alexander Berzin as a teacher.

One of my teachers is a German a monastic and a druppon for three years retreatants. He used to be the personal doctor and translator to Lama Gendeun Rinpoche and translator to the 16th Karmapa. Does the fact that he is not Tibetan make him any less of a teacher?

Then in Greece, for example, there is a distinct lack of Tibetan teachers, does that mean I should not turn to my lama (who is an authenticated teacher) because he is Greek and await the arrival of Tibetan teachers once a year? Seems a bit silly. Of course there is a higher probability that a Tibetan teacher from a traditional monastary will have the necessary training to give tantric empowerments, but even then, if a Western teacher is authorised to, why would I not "bother"?
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:59 pm 
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I hear ya Greg..I addressed this when talking to Tmingy about stuff...some thread where i got upset when i realized that even Namdrol The Great might be a Buddhist teacher adding to the Buddhist tradition of making up things in the Buddha's name and calling it tradition....

Who knows in a thousand years Namdrol the Great will be legendary as the The Snake People King....
Songs will be sung...his hat will be sought by the Chinese government.....knock offs of his shoe laces will be fashion statements worn by young trendies far off in the future.....

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 6:29 pm 
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Rael wrote:
I hear ya Greg..I addressed this when talking to Tmingy about stuff...some thread where i got upset when i realized that even Namdrol The Great might be a Buddhist teacher adding to the Buddhist tradition of making up things in the Buddha's name and calling it tradition....

Who knows in a thousand years Namdrol the Great will be legendary as the The Snake People King....
Songs will be sung...his hat will be sought by the Chinese government.....knock offs of his shoe laces will be fashion statements worn by young trendies far off in the future.....
Dude, it's time you got over your aversive obsession with Namdrol otherwise I will be forced to prescribe ECT!

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 6:46 pm 
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Rael wrote:
I hear ya Greg..I addressed this when talking to Tmingy about stuff...some thread where i got upset when i realized that even Namdrol The Great might be a Buddhist teacher adding to the Buddhist tradition of making up things in the Buddha's name and calling it tradition....

Who knows in a thousand years Namdrol the Great will be legendary as the The Snake People King....
Songs will be sung...his hat will be sought by the Chinese government.....knock offs of his shoe laces will be fashion statements worn by young trendies far off in the future.....

Namdrol the Great should be a role model for you Rael rather than a constant target of your venomous crazy-talk. He has put in the work, study, and practice and is an excellent resource and example for the rest of us. He should be treated with the respect that he deserves.


Last edited by Josef on Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 6:48 pm 
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Nangwa wrote:
Namdrol the Great should be a role model for you Rael rather than a constant source of your venomous crazy-talk. He has put in the work, study, and practice and is an excellent resource and example for the rest of us. He should be treated with the respect that he he deserves.


gregkavarnos wrote:
Dude, it's time you got over your aversive obsession with Namdrol otherwise I will be forced to prescribe ECT!

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:55 am 
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mr. gordo wrote:
Nangwa wrote:
Namdrol the Great should be a role model for you Rael rather than a constant source of your venomous crazy-talk. He has put in the work, study, and practice and is an excellent resource and example for the rest of us. He should be treated with the respect that he he deserves.


gregkavarnos wrote:
Dude, it's time you got over your aversive obsession with Namdrol otherwise I will be forced to prescribe ECT!


im not obssessed unless you want to see it that way...

i don't really do well with authority by the way....i reject all such until there are verified enlightened beings...everyone else is just one or two shades up or below.....


and get over yourselves people.....

and your little dog too.....(((thats from the wizard of oz if you have to know....


anyway i can't find it but there was somewhere i posted the reality the Buddhism is not just the historic Buddha....and it is constantly be written...i did not say it that way...sort of a flippant even namdrol is doing his part.....(I'll try to find it)


your looking for nastiness in me that is not there......

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:59 am 
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ok here was me in my own way giving credit to namdrol where credit is due....

read em and weep you witch hunting old ladies....


Rael wrote:
can be....

oki doke...thats the honesty .....

look somoen ragged on you about Nargajuna The King of the Snake people who lived 900 years....

personnaly i don't think so...but the writings are Buddhist...and lead one on the path....


westerners mish mashming them around annoys me....hence my angst in the the emptiness thread with Namdrol the Great....

I've come to terms that the Buddha did not write the lotus sutra andit was some persian dude who prolly ate a lot of hashish and was a super intilect and understood buddhism more than most....and he presented it to the emperor of china and had to live with the dude for awhile....prolly got laid a bunch of times.....

who cares...it's Buddhist....

wait....so by this form of thinking maybe i should pay homage to Namdrol the Great and the western teachers.....


argh...painted meself in a corner....

ya bug me dude....

laterzzzzzz
r

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:03 am 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
Rael wrote:
I hear ya Greg..I addressed this when talking to Tmingy about stuff...some thread where i got upset when i realized that even Namdrol The Great might be a Buddhist teacher adding to the Buddhist tradition of making up things in the Buddha's name and calling it tradition....

Who knows in a thousand years Namdrol the Great will be legendary as the The Snake People King....
Songs will be sung...his hat will be sought by the Chinese government.....knock offs of his shoe laces will be fashion statements worn by young trendies far off in the future.....
Dude, it's time you got over your aversive obsession with Namdrol otherwise I will be forced to prescribe ECT!


and this is none other than humour...

if you people are far too tight asses for this....

i'll take me dog and pony show somewhere's else....

seriously....it's a little lame of you all to see it the way your seeing it....

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:35 am 
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sarcasm doesn't translate on the internet.
maybe your dog and pony should just try another act before you pack up.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 4:40 pm 
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Nangwa wrote:
sarcasm doesn't translate on the internet.
maybe your dog and pony should just try another act before you pack up.


actually thats a very nice thing to say to someone who just posted what i did...

you have a good heart....
:heart:

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