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 Post subject: Re: Ordination
PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 5:42 pm 
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Caz wrote:
Vinaya=extensive morale discipline.
I hope we can all keep some. :woohoo:


No; vinaya is the rules that Buddha gave to his monastic sangha for their guidance. There are actual texts giving these rules for bhikkhus.

Here are part of the rules: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe13/index.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Ordination
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:42 am 
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Even in this Suggestion Box the debate on who is an ordained person appeared immediately. Perhaps the discussion can go on in another topic.

As for an ordination forum, since there is little discussion of such matters I see no need for a whole separate place for it. We're also short of both ordained members and Vinaya professionals to give authentic information. Maybe later.

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 Post subject: Re: Ordination
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:26 am 
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I can't really say why, but reading this thread has given rise to an uncontrollable urge to self-ordain.


-Most Rev. Catmoon Rinpoche
Northerner Representative and Buddhist Dharma Regent Plenipotentiary

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 Post subject: Re: Ordination
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:30 am 
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catmoon wrote:
I can't really say why, but reading this thread has given rise to an uncontrollable urge to self-ordain.


-Most Rev. Catmoon Rinpoche
Northerner Representative and Buddhist Dharma Regent Plenipotentiary


Someone is lurking on this forum

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 Post subject: Re: Ordination
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:01 am 
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catmoon wrote:
I can't really say why, but reading this thread has given rise to an uncontrollable urge to self-ordain.


-Most Rev. Catmoon Rinpoche
Northerner Representative and Buddhist Dharma Regent Plenipotentiary
Hey! Who gave you permission to use my title? Tell you what, you can get to keep it if I get to be Northener Representative and Buddhist Dharma HIGH Regent Plenipotentiary. Deal?

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 Post subject: Re: Ordination
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:40 am 
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Image

This must be one of those days....

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 Post subject: Re: Ordination
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:54 pm 
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Seems there are several distinct issues.
Some words have very specific meaning,
other words are somewhat flexible, yet
others are context-dependent. Then there's
the matter of denotation vs. colloquial meaning...

Monk means monk, unless you're Japanese. ;)
Where it could mean priest who is not monastic.

But then there's Bodhisattva ordinarion but not
monastic-- some say 18 root vows and 46 branch;
but others say only 5!

Vajrayana vows are considered an ordination
but some say lay, others say a distinct sangha.

Priests are generally professionals, but qualified
authorized teachers are not necessarily priests
or monastic.

Many Bona Fide Lamas are not monks, nuns,
nor even ordained as ngakpas, yet they are
authorized by and ordained by their root-lamas...
Other times, only authorized to teach, but no ordination...

Very complex indeed.


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 Post subject: Re: Ordination
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:30 am 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
catmoon wrote:
I can't really say why, but reading this thread has given rise to an uncontrollable urge to self-ordain.


-Most Rev. Catmoon Rinpoche
Northerner Representative and Buddhist Dharma Regent Plenipotentiary
Hey! Who gave you permission to use my title? Tell you what, you can get to keep it if I get to be Northener Representative and Buddhist Dharma HIGH Regent Plenipotentiary. Deal?


It's a deal. Congratulations, High Regent.

- Most Rev. Catmoon Rinpoche
Northerner Representative and Buddhist Dharma Supreme Regent Plenipotentiary

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 Post subject: Re: Ordination
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:47 am 
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Just call me HR for bervitys sake!

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 Post subject: Re: Ordination
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:10 pm 
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Astus wrote:
As for an ordination forum, since there is little discussion of such matters I see no need for a whole separate place for it.

I agree, but maybe it would be useful to have a thread about ordination resources and faqs (questions you should ask yourself before ordaining, a list of monasteries that accept westerners, the details of the Vinaya, etc.) pinned at the top of some subforum.

gregkavarnos wrote:
Just call me HR for bervitys sake!

I see you're being modest today... You left off the ISB (Intergalactic Super Buddha)!


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 Post subject: Re: Ordination
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:21 pm 
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Luke wrote:
I see you're being modest today... You left off the ISB (Intergalactic Super Buddha)!
No need to trot it out, we just take that bit for granted! :tongue:

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 Post subject: Re: Ordination
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:31 pm 
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Luke wrote:
Astus wrote:
As for an ordination forum, since there is little discussion of such matters I see no need for a whole separate place for it.

I agree, but maybe it would be useful to have a thread about ordination resources and faqs (questions you should ask yourself before ordaining, a list of monasteries that accept westerners, the details of the Vinaya, etc.) pinned at the top of some subforum.

gregkavarnos wrote:
Just call me HR for bervitys sake!

I see you're being modest today... You left off the ISB (Intergalactic Super Buddha)!


Most monasteries would accept westerners. Visa issues aside, they just need to speak the local language and follow the house rules.

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 Post subject: Re: Ordination
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:47 am 
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that's all well and good... it's just the Bene Gesserit witches you have to look out for.

:crazy:

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 Post subject: Re: Ordination
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:50 am 
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Quote:
that's all well and good... it's just the Bene Gesserit witches you have to look out for.

:crazy:

At least it's not us who burn them alive at the stake...

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 Post subject: Re: Ordination
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 2:17 pm 
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I just finished reading THE BROKEN BUDDHA: Critical Reflections on Theravada and a Plea for a New Buddhism by S. Dhammika
http://www.buddhistische-gesellschaft-b ... dhanew.pdf
and the section on Vinaya made me start rethinking some of my earlier comments. I reproduce here the entire chapter on Vinaya and reccomend reading the "article" as it is a warning of what can and is happening in the ordained sangha.
Quote:
The Vinaya
The Vinaya is the second book in the Pali Tipitaka and contains the two hundred and twenty seven
rules monks are supposed to follow and the procedures for the ordering of monastic communities. A
separate section contains the rules for nuns. Westerners, indeed many lay Asian Theravadins as
well, believe that monks follow all these rules. This is not so, it never has been and it is only
sensible that it be that way. Many rules are irrelevant or meaningless outside the ancient Indian
context in which they were drawn up. What actually happens is that the majority of monks follow
the rules that have traditionally been followed and ignore rules that have not traditionally been
followed. It is difficult to detect any pattern in the selection of each other than that rules giving
monks precedence and status are always practiced and insisted upon with the greatest conviction.
Some quite useful rules are ignored completely while other seemingly useless ones are followed
scrupulously. Again, certain rules are carefully observed but in the most inane way or in the letter
only. Yet again, others are observed in a way that seems to defy any logic or purpose at all. For
example, the overwhelming majority of monks ‘handle money,’ to use the curious Theravadin
phrase. They buy, they sell, they have bank accounts, they accept donations, sometimes they even
demand them and this is looked upon as perfectly normal although it is against the Vinaya. Some
more finicky monks might insist that any cash given to them be put in an envelope so that they
don’t actually have physical contact with it, thus conforming to the letter of the rule while ignoring
its intent. Monks will not drink milk after midday , which accords with the Vinaya, but in Thailand
they will eat cheese and chocolate in the afternoon which clearly does not. The Vinaya says that any
food given to a monk must be formally offered, but if a lay person forgets to do this the monk will
instruct him to do so, which infringes the Vinaya rule about asking for anything. In the better
monasteries a ceremony is held twice a month during which monks are supposed to confess any
infringements of the rules or inappropriate behavior. This ceremony could have great value for
personal development and communal living. However, it is nearly always done in a purely
perfunctory manner where the words of the ceremony are simply recited with no real confession or
forgiveness taking place.
On top of all this there are a number of customary practices which are not in the Vinaya but are
treated as if they were, sometimes treated as even more sacrosanct. Thus Thai monks accept gifts of
money despite this being against the Vinaya, but they will never take anything directly from a
woman’s hand, which is not stipulated by the Vinaya. When a monk does the first no one thinks
anything of it, but if he fails to do the second he would be looked upon with extreme disapproval,
perhaps even disrobed. There is one other complication as well. Which rules are traditionally
followed and which are not and the customary practices that have developed around them differ
from country to country, from sect to sect, sometimes even from one region to another within the
same country. Thai monks, for example, are critical of their Burmese counterparts for going out
with only one shoulder covered with the robe. Sri Lankan monks use aluminum alms bowls but for
some unaccountable reason Thai monks consider this to be against the Vinaya. No Sri Lankan monk
would dare to smoke in public because this is believed to infringe the Vinaya but it is quite
acceptable for them to chew tobacco. Thailand’s Thammayut sect likewise considers smoking to be
contrary to Vinaya but the Mahaniky sect does not.
The reality is that the Sangha has been running on automatic for centuries and the major factor
governing most monks’ behavior is not Vinaya or Dhamma but long established traditions. Some of
these traditions originate with the Vinaya and accord with it, some do not. Some are practical and
sensible, many are pointless. Some could be useful if practiced with wisdom, a few are downright
bad. The majority of monks conform to traditional patterns of behavior, at least while lay people are
watching, and live their lives giving little or no thought to the Dhamma or the Vinaya. A much
smaller number of sincere monks, understandably reacting against the slovenliness of the majority,
try to follow every rule with almost fanatical exactness. This however, not only shows a serious
misunderstanding of the Dhamma, it also inevitably leads to the absurdities and problems that will
be mentioned below. An even smaller number of equally sincere but perhaps more intelligent
monks are capable of seeing the overall intent of the monastic life - mindful, disciplined behavior
conducive to understanding – and try their best to be like that without necessarily following every
rule literally. Unfortunately, such monks are a tiny cohort who get no support from the unthinking
tradition-bound majority and receive only sneering disapproval from the inflexible fundamentalists
minority.

:namaste:

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 Post subject: Re: Ordination
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 4:20 pm 
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Quote:
I once knew a monk who kept a pair of tweezers so that he could count the donations he received without having
physical contact with them.

:rolling:
I read this little book a long time ago. Some of the passages were absolutely hilarious!


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 Post subject: Re: Ordination
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 5:45 pm 
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Dechen Norbu wrote:
Quote:
I once knew a monk who kept a pair of tweezers so that he could count the donations he received without having
physical contact with them.

:rolling:
I read this little book a long time ago. Some of the passages were absolutely hilarious!
They would be hilarious if they were not so Buddha-damned true! Sigh... :(

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 Post subject: Re: Ordination
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 3:55 pm 
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Yes, that's true. :(
Still, the idea of a monk using tweezers to count his money because there's a precept that doesn't allow the ordained to touch it makes me *** my pants laughing! :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Ordination
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 6:17 pm 
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but it didn't work in the end.


The policies and standards didn't work? I didn't have that impression, it worked all pretty well and actually ES as such established a high standard for a serious multi-tradition international buddhist board. What didn't work was the anti-hack security system behind the ES forum and the backup system and procedure. And then Leos total silence on all things ES after the collapse. A different way to handle these things and ES would be still up and running I suppose.


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 Post subject: Re: Ordination
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 7:20 pm 
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Nice to see you Andreas. :smile:


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