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 Post subject: Tulku Urgyen
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:09 am 
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"try to be undistracted continuously throughout the day and the rest of the time then he can guarantee you that within 15 years you will awaken, be fully awakened, be fully realized, there’s no doubt about that, but that means continuous practice, not just once in a while and then expect something special will happen."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMPj45_rJwI

http://wearebuddhamind.blogspot.com/200 ... l?spref=fb

/magnus

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 Post subject: Re: Tulku Urgyen
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:50 am 
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heart wrote:
"try to be undistracted continuously throughout the day and the rest of the time then he can guarantee you that within 15 years you will awaken, be fully awakened, be fully realized, there’s no doubt about that, but that means continuous practice, not just once in a while and then expect something special will happen."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMPj45_rJwI

http://wearebuddhamind.blogspot.com/200 ... l?spref=fb

/magnus

"In the system of the New Schools, there are first of all the four tantras of Kriya Tantra, Charya Tantra, Yoga Tantra, and Anuttara Yoga Tantra. The fourth is divided into Father Anuttara Tantra, Mother Anuttara Tantra and Nondual Anuttara Tantra. This correspond exactly to the structure of the Old School, Nyingma, in that father tantra of Anuttara is Mahayoga, mother tantra is Anu yoga and the nondual tantra is Ati Yoga, [Dzogchen]. However, there are no explicit teachings on Togal in Anuttara. That is the main difference, whereas it is taught that there is no difference whatsoever between "essence Mahamudra" and Dzogchen in meaning - only in terminology."

Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche also always stated Mahamudra and Dzogchen are the same but only different terminology, as I remeber the meetings with Him. What about the III Karmapa Rangjung Dorje, The Initial Master of The Karma Nyinthig. Is He not stated the same?

As I understad, all is about continuous practice, whatever Clear light in Highest Yoga Tantra, Ordinary Mind in Mahamudra or Rigpa in Dzogchen is presented evidently and can be recognized immediately and one will practice with this recognition further.


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 Post subject: Re: Tulku Urgyen
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:18 pm 
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Tulku Urgyen was the real deal...


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 Post subject: Re: Tulku Urgyen
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 6:58 pm 
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Mariusz wrote:
"In the system of the New Schools, there are first of all the four tantras of Kriya Tantra, Charya Tantra, Yoga Tantra, and Anuttara Yoga Tantra. The fourth is divided into Father Anuttara Tantra, Mother Anuttara Tantra and Nondual Anuttara Tantra. This correspond exactly to the structure of the Old School, Nyingma, in that father tantra of Anuttara is Mahayoga, mother tantra is Anu yoga and the nondual tantra is Ati Yoga, [Dzogchen].



This quite arguable. Chogyal Namkhai Norbu explains that this equation of the three inner tantras with father, mother and non-dual tantra was a political gesture. He definitely does not agree with this sort of statement.

The fact is that Longchenpa, etc. all treat HYT as "outer tantra".

N

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 Post subject: Re: Tulku Urgyen
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:05 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
Mariusz wrote:
"In the system of the New Schools, there are first of all the four tantras of Kriya Tantra, Charya Tantra, Yoga Tantra, and Anuttara Yoga Tantra. The fourth is divided into Father Anuttara Tantra, Mother Anuttara Tantra and Nondual Anuttara Tantra. This correspond exactly to the structure of the Old School, Nyingma, in that father tantra of Anuttara is Mahayoga, mother tantra is Anu yoga and the nondual tantra is Ati Yoga, [Dzogchen].



This quite arguable. Chogyal Namkhai Norbu explains that this equation of the three inner tantras with father, mother and non-dual tantra was a political gesture. He definitely does not agree with this sort of statement.

The fact is that Longchenpa, etc. all treat HYT as "outer tantra".

N

They are practically different as well. Mother Tantra in the Sarma systems is practiced quite different from Anuyoga in my experience.
The most obvious difference is the kyerim approach of the two systems.


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 Post subject: Re: Tulku Urgyen
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:43 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
The fact is that Longchenpa, etc. all treat HYT as "outer tantra".


Really? Outer as in kriya, charya and yoga? Why is that?

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 Post subject: Re: Tulku Urgyen
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:57 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
This quite arguable. Chogyal Namkhai Norbu explains that this equation of the three inner tantras with father, mother and non-dual tantra was a political gesture. He definitely does not agree with this sort of statement.

The fact is that Longchenpa, etc. all treat HYT as "outer tantra".

N


Longchenpa’s [Great Chariot ] states:
Mahayoga, the father tantra, the nature of method [related to] appearance,
[is taught] to benefit those whose strongest emotional affliction
is aversion and who are subject to excessive discursiveness.
Anuyoga, the mother tantra, the wisdom of the completion phase
[related to] the essential reality of emptiness, [is taught] to benefit
those whose strongest emotional affliction is desire and who delight
in stillness of mind.
Atiyoga, the nature of nonduality, [is taught] to benefit those
whose strongest emotional affliction is delusion and who are tarnished
by [attachment to] effort.25 The Great Array states:26
The generation phase is for minds elevated [with many
concepts];
The completion phase, for minds with attachment [to the
experience of bliss];
And the great perfection, for the most secret and supreme.

Furthermore, Longchenpa’s
Finding Comfort and Ease in the Nature of Mind states:
Mahayoga emphasizes winds and the methods of the generation
phase.
Anuyoga emphasizes the constituent [of bliss] and the wisdom of
the completion phase;
Atiyoga emphasizes pristine awareness from which nothing is
separate.

The Treasury of Knowledge Book Six, Part Four: Systems of Buddhist Tantra The Indestructible Way of Secret Mantra. page 308


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 Post subject: Re: Tulku Urgyen
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:19 pm 
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tamdrin wrote:
Tulku Urgyen was the real deal...


Namdrol was the person that first piqued my interest in Dzogchen via E-Sangha. Tulku Urgyen was the great being that sealed it for me as a practice I wanted to devote myself to, and his sons have been kind enough to teach it to me.

He was an incredible being and I wish I'd met him in person. But we have his sons who now spread Dzogchen and Mahamudra in their own unique ways, but with a massive degree of influence from Tulku Urgyen's style. Then there's his incredible array of friends, students and teachers such as Dilgo Khyenste Rinpoche and Erik Kunsang.

From that interview, the most important part for me is the advice to practice ALL THE TIME.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Tulku Urgyen
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:35 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
Mariusz wrote:
"In the system of the New Schools, there are first of all the four tantras of Kriya Tantra, Charya Tantra, Yoga Tantra, and Anuttara Yoga Tantra. The fourth is divided into Father Anuttara Tantra, Mother Anuttara Tantra and Nondual Anuttara Tantra. This correspond exactly to the structure of the Old School, Nyingma, in that father tantra of Anuttara is Mahayoga, mother tantra is Anu yoga and the nondual tantra is Ati Yoga, [Dzogchen].



This quite arguable. Chogyal Namkhai Norbu explains that this equation of the three inner tantras with father, mother and non-dual tantra was a political gesture. He definitely does not agree with this sort of statement.

The fact is that Longchenpa, etc. all treat HYT as "outer tantra".

N


Well Tulku Urgyen wouldn't get along with a lot of things ChNN says. Still, the got along very fine and ChNN used to visit Tulku Urgyen when he was in Kathmandu. Interesting, no?

/magnus

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"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa


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 Post subject: Re: Tulku Urgyen
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:20 pm 
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Hayagriva wrote:
tamdrin wrote:
Tulku Urgyen was the real deal...


Namdrol was the person that first piqued my interest in Dzogchen via E-Sangha. Tulku Urgyen was the great being that sealed it for me as a practice I wanted to devote myself to, and his sons have been kind enough to teach it to me.

He was an incredible being and I wish I'd met him in person. But we have his sons who now spread Dzogchen and Mahamudra in their own unique ways, but with a massive degree of influence from Tulku Urgyen's style. Then there's his incredible array of friends, students and teachers such as Dilgo Khyenste Rinpoche and Erik Kunsang.

From that interview, the most important part for me is the advice to practice ALL THE TIME.

Image

Great photograph.


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 Post subject: Re: Tulku Urgyen
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:27 pm 
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Nangwa wrote:
Hayagriva wrote:
tamdrin wrote:
Tulku Urgyen was the real deal...


Namdrol was the person that first piqued my interest in Dzogchen via E-Sangha. Tulku Urgyen was the great being that sealed it for me as a practice I wanted to devote myself to, and his sons have been kind enough to teach it to me.

He was an incredible being and I wish I'd met him in person. But we have his sons who now spread Dzogchen and Mahamudra in their own unique ways, but with a massive degree of influence from Tulku Urgyen's style. Then there's his incredible array of friends, students and teachers such as Dilgo Khyenste Rinpoche and Erik Kunsang.

From that interview, the most important part for me is the advice to practice ALL THE TIME.

Image

Great photograph.


It always reminds me of this: http://yonkom.blogspot.com/2007/05/inst ... staff.html

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Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal


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 Post subject: Re: Tulku Urgyen
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 12:38 am 
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Namdrol wrote:
The fact is that Longchenpa, etc. all treat HYT as "outer tantra".

N



This is not really true. Longchempa said for Sarma any empowerment that contains the full 4 empowerments is HYT as opposed to lower tantra which only has 1 or 2 empowerments I think. Also that if the deity is practiced in yabyum it is HYT solo deities are lower tantra. Also I think that maybe in Sakya and Gelugpa they don't accept the pointing out of the "4rth empowerment" so their understanding of it may be different than the Kagyu. But I am not sure on that.


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 Post subject: Re: Tulku Urgyen
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:24 am 
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As Kyabje Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche used to say he made many mistakes and often the Karmapa would correct him before acting or was proven right if he had disagreed and it was too late after the fact. Everything is well. We might go through nervous periods from time to time but should publicly keep major samayas as they can't be undone later when regretful, specially with respect to major living tertons sent by Guru Rinpoche.

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Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes


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 Post subject: Re: Tulku Urgyen
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:07 am 
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Hayagriva wrote:
tamdrin wrote:
Tulku Urgyen was the real deal...


From that interview, the most important part for me is the advice to practice ALL THE TIME.


Agreed, it is. Tulku Urgyen was an incredible practitioner not an intellectual.

/magnus

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"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa


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 Post subject: Re: Tulku Urgyen
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 8:50 am 
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tamdrin wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
The fact is that Longchenpa, etc. all treat HYT as "outer tantra".

N



This is not really true. Longchempa said for Sarma any empowerment that contains the full 4 empowerments is HYT as opposed to lower tantra which only has 1 or 2 empowerments I think. Also that if the deity is practiced in yabyum it is HYT solo deities are lower tantra. Also I think that maybe in Sakya and Gelugpa they don't accept the pointing out of the "4rth empowerment" so their understanding of it may be different than the Kagyu. But I am not sure on that.


Rime Initiator Kongtrul the Great wrote in The Treasury of Knowledge Book Six, Part Four: Systems of Buddhist Tantra The Indestructible Way of Secret Mantra. page 338

In particular, in accordance with the [atiyoga] division of esoteric instructions,
there are four initiations as stated in the Naturally Present Perfection:
The elaborate, unelaborate,
The very unelaborate, and utterly unelaborate:
Four initiations in four aspects
Effect the ripening of the fortunate.
The four initiations, in sequence, purify the obscurations of body, speech,
and mind, and the obscurations to omniscience; and establish the potencies
for awakened body, speech, and mind, and naturally present luminous clarity.
They empower [the student] in the four practices: the phase of generation,
meditation on inner heat, and meditation on the union of bliss and
emptiness (through which are realized the pristine awareness of primordial
purity), and the practice to directly experience the state of spontaneous
perfection, respectively.
These initiations represent four divisions within the higher initiation
[the fourth]. Hence, although in number they are equal to the common
initiations of highest yoga tantra, one should understand that their meaning
is different.


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 Post subject: Re: Tulku Urgyen
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 8:58 am 
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More on analogies between Dzogchen of 9 yanas and HYT. As for my later post the note 25 of the book said:

Atiyoga is taught to practitioners of mahayoga and anuyoga who are attached to
effort and striving toward a goal; it is the way to self-liberate that attachment.
What is set forth in this citation is not a direct relationship between mahayoga,
anuyoga, and atiyoga and the mother tantra, father tantra, and nondual tantra of the
new schools but is instead a simple analogy: Just as father tantra emphasizes the phase of
generation, and mother tantra, the phase of completion, mahayoga emphasizes the phase
of generation, anuyoga, the phase of completion, and so on.


I have never found such thing as "Dzogchen outside 9 yanas". All teachings of Buddhism are included in 9 yanas. For me all teachings of Buddhism should be taken as a whole.


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 Post subject: Re: Tulku Urgyen
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 10:05 am 
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Mariusz wrote:
More on analogies between Dzogchen of 9 yanas and HYT. As for my later post the note 25 of the book said:

Atiyoga is taught to practitioners of mahayoga and anuyoga who are attached to
effort and striving toward a goal; it is the way to self-liberate that attachment.
What is set forth in this citation is not a direct relationship between mahayoga,
anuyoga, and atiyoga and the mother tantra, father tantra, and nondual tantra of the
new schools but is instead a simple analogy: Just as father tantra emphasizes the phase of
generation, and mother tantra, the phase of completion, mahayoga emphasizes the phase
of generation, anuyoga, the phase of completion, and so on.


I have never found such thing as "Dzogchen outside 9 yanas". All teachings of Buddhism are included in 9 yanas. For me all teachings of Buddhism should be taken as a whole.


Then you will be awfully surprised when you read the texts I have read.

N

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http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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 Post subject: Re: Tulku Urgyen
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 10:33 am 
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Namdrol wrote:
Then you will be awfully surprised when you read the texts I have read.

N

:smile: What texts?


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 Post subject: Re: Tulku Urgyen
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:56 pm 
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heart wrote:
Well Tulku Urgyen wouldn't get along with a lot of things ChNN says. Still, the got along very fine and ChNN used to visit Tulku Urgyen when he was in Kathmandu. Interesting, no?

/magnus


Many masters would not agree things Namkhai Norbu rinpoche said, but they didn't criticise him. (Some did though)


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 Post subject: Re: Tulku Urgyen
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:56 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
The fact is that Longchenpa, etc. all treat HYT as "outer tantra".

N


could you please qoute the source?


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