Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby heart » Sat Apr 02, 2011 11:30 am

Namdrol,

I don't think I am presenting any modern conventional Nyingma view, I am not a scholar at all, I just state what I see. The Vima Nyingthik is not free from the nine yanas according to what I have heard. To consider it free of the nine yanas you would have to weed out some parts, accept and reject to make it fit your view. So this subject about a "pure" Dzogchen free from the nine yanas feels very idealistic to me. Many of us older practitioners, and perhaps some new ones as well, received a profound direct introduction from our teachers and actually recognized our own nature. However, it is quite difficult to rest for a long time in a recognition that you can't prolong because every effort would instantly make you drift in to mind, the essence of effort. So this is why you use methods, methods are ways to overcome the habitual tendencies of the mind, and the main methods are compassion and devotion. Like Tulku Urgyen said many times"There are only three things you have to remember about practice and that is devotion to the Buddhas above, compassion to sentient beings below and in between rest in the natural state".

Even this wonderful prayer from the Vima NYingthik that I myself do several times a day contain many ideas coming from the lower yanas, like Buddha of the three times, the four kayas, blessing, empowerment, devotion and so on.

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... _KYI_NGOWO

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby heart » Sat Apr 02, 2011 11:42 am

don't believe for a second that you can peg ChNN in this way just because he teaches a lot of secondary practices


What he teach is what he teach, it is more or less the same as most Nyingma teachers the only thing that actually differs is that he don't insist on a "first you do this then you do that" attitude, at least not until the santi maha sangha, and that is not so unusual among traditional Nyingma teachers either. I like him but he is not so unusual.

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby Adamantine » Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:07 pm

:popcorn:
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby Malcolm » Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:43 pm

heart wrote:Namdrol,

I don't think I am presenting any modern conventional Nyingma view, I am not a scholar at all, I just state what I see. The Vima Nyingthik is not free from the nine yanas according to what I have heard. To consider it free of the nine yanas you would have to weed out some parts, accept and reject to make it fit your view. So this subject about a "pure" Dzogchen free from the nine yanas feels very idealistic to me.



Well, you just go with what you understand, I will go with what I understand. Our understandings clearly differ. I am not going to abuse the teachings of dzogchen to "prove" my point by barraging you with citations that you will inevitably try to parse in a fashion according to however you see things.

So, this is the thing --there are some people who consider that there are two streams: one, outside the nine yānas; one, part of the nine yānas. Then there is another party -- they assert the whole of Dzogchen teachings belongs to the nine yānas.

I belong to the former group, you the latter. I respect your point of view, I just don't agree with it.
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby heart » Sat Apr 02, 2011 3:53 pm

http://wearebuddhamind.blogspot.com/200 ... l?spref=fb

/magnus

EDIT: Not exactly thought like a response to Namdrol, just that some of what we discussed here is mentioned in this interview that someone just posted on facebook. It is an oldie.
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby Dhondrub » Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:54 pm

heart wrote:http://wearebuddhamind.blogspot.com/2009/10/tulku-urgyen-rinpoche-interview-for.html?spref=fb

/magnus


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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby Sönam » Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:50 pm

heart wrote:Or else all these people like Jax and Sönam that reads the Kunjed Gyalpo as basically a good reason to consider the nine yanas as unimportant and unnecessary are correct. I am afraid I see no middle path there.

/magnus


Just to be correct Magnus, I never said in no form that the nine yanas are unimportant and unnecessary ... I only pretended that Mahayoga, Yidam practices, ngondrö and so on do not not lead to Dzogchen (rig pa) and they are not part of Dzogchen. I never critisized any practice of the nine yanas ... even when I let the contradiction going on on that wrong basis.

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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby heart » Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:28 pm

Sönam wrote:
heart wrote:Or else all these people like Jax and Sönam that reads the Kunjed Gyalpo as basically a good reason to consider the nine yanas as unimportant and unnecessary are correct. I am afraid I see no middle path there.

/magnus


Just to be correct Magnus, I never said in no form that the nine yanas are unimportant and unnecessary ... I only pretended that Mahayoga, Yidam practices, ngondrö and so on do not not lead to Dzogchen (rig pa) and they are not part of Dzogchen. I never critisized any practice of the nine yanas ... even when I let the contradiction going on on that wrong basis.

Sönam


Sorry if I misquoted you, but what would be the point of doing these practices if they don't lead to the recognition of rigpa? It is pretty clear to me that what makes you recognize your own nature is nothing but the accumulation of merit and wisdom. Without that accumulation it is impossible to even find your root Guru. Then after recognition it is still incredibly important because there are almost infinite ways of straying from the path, misunderstanding the path or just **** up.
There are so many Nyingthik cycles and Yangti cycle that contain all these practices, are you suggesting that Guru Rinpoche, Vimalamitra and so on was mistaken?

/magnus
Last edited by Tara on Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed inappropriate word
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby Sönam » Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:52 pm

heart wrote:Sorry if I misquoted you, but what would be the point of doing these practices if they don't lead to the recognition of rigpa? It is pretty clear to me that what makes you recognize your own nature is nothing but the accumulation of merit and wisdom. Without that accumulation it is impossible to even find your root Guru. Then after recognition it is still incredibly important because there are almost infinite ways of straying from the path, misunderstanding the path or just **** up.
There are so many Nyingthik cycles and Yangti cycle that contain all these practices, are you suggesting that Guru Rinpoche, Vimalamitra and so on was mistaken?

/magnus


magnus,
the ambiguity is on "to lead to" ... when you view in term on linearity, you have to considere accumulation of merit. Because of that accumulation one come to a point of recognition of rig-pa. With that view, one may say accumulation of merit (yidam, ngondrö, or else and so on) "leads" to the recognition of rig-pa (Dzogchen). Once you have recognized rig-pa, "life change", and nothing "leads" to rig-pa, because the "practice" is only "no to" fall in ma-rigpa (which in "reality-fact" is totaly impossible). Of course, in that "space", when it is in the here and now, one can practice Yidam, ngondrö and so on, and it 'fit' energies, but even there, the practice is slightly different, there is no more "2 phases", but only one, the "immediate and spontaneous" completion one ... but then it is not "a lead", it's spontaneous and immediate.

Sönam
Last edited by Tara on Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed inappropriate word
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Sönam
 
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby heart » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:43 pm

Sönam wrote:
heart wrote:Sorry if I misquoted you, but what would be the point of doing these practices if they don't lead to the recognition of rigpa? It is pretty clear to me that what makes you recognize your own nature is nothing but the accumulation of merit and wisdom. Without that accumulation it is impossible to even find your root Guru. Then after recognition it is still incredibly important because there are almost infinite ways of straying from the path, misunderstanding the path or just **** up.
There are so many Nyingthik cycles and Yangti cycle that contain all these practices, are you suggesting that Guru Rinpoche, Vimalamitra and so on was mistaken?

/magnus


magnus,
the ambiguity is on "to lead to" ... when you view in term on linearity, you have to considere accumulation of merit. Because of that accumulation one come to a point of recognition of rig-pa. With that view, one may say accumulation of merit (yidam, ngondrö, or else and so on) "leads" to the recognition of rig-pa (Dzogchen). Once you have recognized rig-pa, "life change", and nothing "leads" to rig-pa, because the "practice" is only "no to" fall in ma-rigpa (which in "reality-fact" is totaly impossible). Of course, in that "space", when it is in the here and now, one can practice Yidam, ngondrö and so on, and it 'fit' energies, but even there, the practice is slightly different, there is no more "2 phases", but only one, the "immediate and spontaneous" completion one ... but then it is not "a lead", it's spontaneous and immediate.

Sönam



Seriously Sönam, I don't know how to tell you this in a soft way, but this is not how you practice Dzogchen. I told you many times now, if you try to prolong the recognition it is just mind, just a thought. Not that I am an expert or anything but as my teacher say "short moments repeated many times", compassion and devotion come in very handy there if you want to repeat it "many times".

/magnus
Last edited by Tara on Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed inappropriate word
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby Malcolm » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:02 pm

heart wrote:
Sönam wrote:
heart wrote:Sorry if I misquoted you, but what would be the point of doing these practices if they don't lead to the recognition of rigpa? It is pretty clear to me that what makes you recognize your own nature is nothing but the accumulation of merit and wisdom. Without that accumulation it is impossible to even find your root Guru. Then after recognition it is still incredibly important because there are almost infinite ways of straying from the path, misunderstanding the path or just **** up.
There are so many Nyingthik cycles and Yangti cycle that contain all these practices, are you suggesting that Guru Rinpoche, Vimalamitra and so on was mistaken?

/magnus


magnus,
the ambiguity is on "to lead to" ... when you view in term on linearity, you have to considere accumulation of merit. Because of that accumulation one come to a point of recognition of rig-pa. With that view, one may say accumulation of merit (yidam, ngondrö, or else and so on) "leads" to the recognition of rig-pa (Dzogchen). Once you have recognized rig-pa, "life change", and nothing "leads" to rig-pa, because the "practice" is only "no to" fall in ma-rigpa (which in "reality-fact" is totaly impossible). Of course, in that "space", when it is in the here and now, one can practice Yidam, ngondrö and so on, and it 'fit' energies, but even there, the practice is slightly different, there is no more "2 phases", but only one, the "immediate and spontaneous" completion one ... but then it is not "a lead", it's spontaneous and immediate.

Sönam



Seriously Sönam, I don't know how to tell you this in a soft way, but this is not how you practice Dzogchen. I told you many times now, if you try to prolong the recognition it is just mind, just a thought. Not that I am an expert or anything but as my teacher say "short moments repeated many times", compassion and devotion come in very handy there if you want to repeat it "many times".

/magnus


I don't think you are really communicating with one another.
Last edited by Tara on Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed inappropriate word
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:53 am

Sönam wrote:
magnus,
the ambiguity is on "to lead to" ... when you view in term on linearity, you have to considere accumulation of merit. Because of that accumulation one come to a point of recognition of rig-pa. With that view, one may say accumulation of merit (yidam, ngondrö, or else and so on) "leads" to the recognition of rig-pa (Dzogchen). Once you have recognized rig-pa, "life change", and nothing "leads" to rig-pa, because the "practice" is only "no to" fall in ma-rigpa (which in "reality-fact" is totaly impossible). Of course, in that "space", when it is in the here and now, one can practice Yidam, ngondrö and so on, and it 'fit' energies, but even there, the practice is slightly different, there is no more "2 phases", but only one, the "immediate and spontaneous" completion one ... but then it is not "a lead", it's spontaneous and immediate.

Sönam


Sonam,

Is the point you made here something you've been trying to communicate for some time now (such as even in past threads)? If so, you've done an infinitely better job here of clarifying it. For the first time, I feel like I can relate to where you're coming from.

Although I would personally add that I feel that practices such as the two stages indirectly enhance one's Dzogchen practice in the "beginning" (a period which I consider to be as long as one has not gained more than a little stability and certainty) in a couple more ways: I feel these practices have the ability to weaken one's habitual sense of "solidity" and the related "compartmentalization" of the solid body and solid, separate, external phenomena; and also... it's hard to put the extent of what I want to say properly into words... these practices have the power to coordinate and relax one's energies and relax one's mental consciousness in such a way that it's easier to cease objectification of the mind's perceptions/notions, an objectification which distracts one from the natural state... Through regularly practicing one's sadhana, it's easier to subsequently relax one's subtle efforts (or one's barely noticeable, futile efforts to stop making effort) and just allow recognition to take place.
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby heart » Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:23 am

Namdrol wrote:
I don't think you are really communicating with one another.


Could be, but just like you and me, Sönam and me had this discussion for a long time. This is what I am answering:

"Once you have recognized rig-pa, "life change", and nothing "leads" to rig-pa, because the "practice" is only "no to" fall in ma-rigpa"

You might agree, I don't.

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby Sönam » Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:46 am

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Sönam wrote:
magnus,
the ambiguity is on "to lead to" ... when you view in term on linearity, you have to considere accumulation of merit. Because of that accumulation one come to a point of recognition of rig-pa. With that view, one may say accumulation of merit (yidam, ngondrö, or else and so on) "leads" to the recognition of rig-pa (Dzogchen). Once you have recognized rig-pa, "life change", and nothing "leads" to rig-pa, because the "practice" is only "no to" fall in ma-rigpa (which in "reality-fact" is totaly impossible). Of course, in that "space", when it is in the here and now, one can practice Yidam, ngondrö and so on, and it 'fit' energies, but even there, the practice is slightly different, there is no more "2 phases", but only one, the "immediate and spontaneous" completion one ... but then it is not "a lead", it's spontaneous and immediate.

Sönam


Sonam,

Is the point you made here something you've been trying to communicate for some time now (such as even in past threads)? If so, you've done an infinitely better job here of clarifying it. For the first time, I feel like I can relate to where you're coming from.

Although I would personally add that I feel that practices such as the two stages indirectly enhance one's Dzogchen practice in the "beginning" (a period which I consider to be as long as one has not gained more than a little stability and certainty) in a couple more ways: I feel these practices have the ability to weaken one's habitual sense of "solidity" and the related "compartmentalization" of the solid body and solid, separate, external phenomena; and also... it's hard to put the extent of what I want to say properly into words... these practices have the power to coordinate and relax one's energies and relax one's mental consciousness in such a way that it's easier to cease objectification of the mind's perceptions/notions, an objectification which distracts one from the natural state... Through regularly practicing one's sadhana, it's easier to subsequently relax one's subtle efforts (or one's barely noticeable, futile efforts to stop making effort) and just allow recognition to take place.


hi Pema,
I can agree with you, and I'm not "against" the Yidam practices, also when it looks so the way that thread turned ... I do myself much more "stupid things" that I would sometime better practice ngondrö (and it happens I do :thumbsup: ).
Sônam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby Malcolm » Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:19 pm

heart wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
I don't think you are really communicating with one another.


"Once you have recognized rig-pa, "life change", and nothing "leads" to rig-pa, because the "practice" is only "no to" fall in ma-rigpa"

/magnus


Once you have knowledge of your state (rigpa), and it is concrete, you have no more doubt, then you proceed in the confidence of liberation. That does not mean you are liberated, just you are certain that for you it will happen, based on your knowledge, your rigpa.

So, I guess I agree more with Sonam.

However, until you have firm knowledge (rigpa) of your state free from doubts, then you need to use various methods to reinforce that knowledge (rigpa).

Introduction --> recognition --> confidence --> liberation.

N
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby heart » Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:49 pm

Namdrol wrote:
heart wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
I don't think you are really communicating with one another.


"Once you have recognized rig-pa, "life change", and nothing "leads" to rig-pa, because the "practice" is only "no to" fall in ma-rigpa"

/magnus


Once you have knowledge of your state (rigpa), and it is concrete, you have no more doubt, then you proceed in the confidence of liberation. That does not mean you are liberated, just you are certain that for you it will happen, based on your knowledge, your rigpa.

So, I guess I agree more with Sonam.

However, until you have firm knowledge (rigpa) of your state free from doubts, then you need to use various methods to reinforce that knowledge (rigpa).

Introduction --> recognition --> confidence --> liberation.

N


Our understanding of the three words obviously differ. It gets a little to personal to continue the discussion at this point and I know from experience that I can't beat you with words. Anyway what Sönam is saying is that once you sat through a direct introduction you don't need anything because you are all the time in rigpa because that is what he read in the Dzogchen Tantras. You agree with him, it is fine with me.

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby Malcolm » Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:03 pm

heart wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Once you have knowledge of your state (rigpa), and it is concrete, you have no more doubt, then you proceed in the confidence of liberation. That does not mean you are liberated, just you are certain that for you it will happen, based on your knowledge, your rigpa.

So, I guess I agree more with Sonam.

However, until you have firm knowledge (rigpa) of your state free from doubts, then you need to use various methods to reinforce that knowledge (rigpa).

Introduction --> recognition --> confidence --> liberation.

N


Our understanding of the three words obviously differ. It gets a little to personal to continue the discussion at this point and I know from experience that I can't beat you with words. Anyway what Sönam is saying is that once you sat through a direct introduction you don't need anything because you are all the time in rigpa because that is what he read in the Dzogchen Tantras. You agree with him, it is fine with me.

/magnus


When you have received direct introduction:

a) you do not have recognition.
b) you have recognition.

If a) proceed to use methods to discover the state of that introduction; then proceed to b.
If b) proceed to removing doubts

c) stabilize that knowledge.

d) continue in that state.


I don't think there is anything controversial about the aforementioned breakdown.


d) continue in that state.
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby Josef » Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:05 pm

This is a pretty clear and pithy teaching on the Three Statements.

"A Dzogchen Master STARTS with "direct introduction" with everyone. If they don't "get it" then one starts to use all the infinite methods and means to help bring about the experience of Rigpa. When one has the experience of Rigpa, then one confirms the validity of one's path now being "remaining with Rigpa" as path. Then, one simply continues in that state. Rigpa is the view to be experienced, Rigpa is the path to be followed, and Rigpa is the fruit of the path. There is no change in Rigpa, either in the beginning, middle or end. The fruit is your first realization of Rigpa. There are no Stages of Rigpa. Thogel does not modify Rigpa."—Dudjom Rinpoche on the Three Statements of Garab Dorje
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby heart » Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:09 pm

Namdrol wrote:
heart wrote:
Our understanding of the three words obviously differ. It gets a little to personal to continue the discussion at this point and I know from experience that I can't beat you with words. Anyway what Sönam is saying is that once you sat through a direct introduction you don't need anything because you are all the time in rigpa because that is what he read in the Dzogchen Tantras. You agree with him, it is fine with me.

/magnus


When you have received direct introduction:

a) you do not have recognition.
b) you have recognition.

If a) proceed to use methods to discover the state of that introduction; then proceed to b.
If b) proceed to removing doubts

c) stabilize that knowledge.

d) continue in that state.


I don't think there is anything controversial about the aforementioned breakdown.



In a way it is logical and non-controversial, but then there is my personal experience and my Gurus personal instruction and this is not the place to discuss them, so lets just leave it like that.

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

Postby Malcolm » Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:11 pm

Nangwa wrote:This is a pretty clear and pithy teaching on the Three Statements.

"A Dzogchen Master STARTS with "direct introduction" with everyone. If they don't "get it" then one starts to use all the infinite methods and means to help bring about the experience of Rigpa. When one has the experience of Rigpa, then one confirms the validity of one's path now being "remaining with Rigpa" as path. Then, one simply continues in that state. Rigpa is the view to be experienced, Rigpa is the path to be followed, and Rigpa is the fruit of the path. There is no change in Rigpa, either in the beginning, middle or end. The fruit is your first realization of Rigpa. There are no Stages of Rigpa. Thogel does not modify Rigpa."—Dudjom Rinpoche on the Three Statements of Garab Dorje



Precisely.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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