Buddhism-as-a-religion vs Buddhism-as-Dharma

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Buddhism-as-a-religion vs Buddhism-as-Dharma

Postby shel » Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:38 pm

In another topic Namdrol wrote that:

Namdrol wrote:That would be the difference between Buddhism-as-a-religion and Buddhism-as-Dharma. It is sometime very difficult to differentiate that. So, we are heavily pressured to believe that we are not swans, and are not capable of separating the milk of Dharma from the water of religion.


What does that mean?
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Re: Buddhism-as-a-religion vs Buddhism-as-Dharma

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:41 pm

shel wrote:In another topic Namdrol wrote that:

Namdrol wrote:That would be the difference between Buddhism-as-a-religion and Buddhism-as-Dharma. It is sometime very difficult to differentiate that. So, we are heavily pressured to believe that we are not swans, and are not capable of separating the milk of Dharma from the water of religion.


What does that mean?



The former is a morass of intellectual opinions, views and beliefs. The latter is something that one has integrated into one's personal experience.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Buddhism-as-a-religion vs Buddhism-as-Dharma

Postby shel » Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:55 pm

Namdrol wrote:
shel wrote:In another topic Namdrol wrote that:

Namdrol wrote:That would be the difference between Buddhism-as-a-religion and Buddhism-as-Dharma. It is sometime very difficult to differentiate that. So, we are heavily pressured to believe that we are not swans, and are not capable of separating the milk of Dharma from the water of religion.


What does that mean?



The former is a morass of intellectual opinions, views and beliefs. The latter is something that one has integrated into one's personal experience.


You're basically saying that the difference between Buddhism-as-a-religion and Buddhism-as-Dharma is that the latter is practiced and the former is not?
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Re: Buddhism-as-a-religion vs Buddhism-as-Dharma

Postby ground » Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:03 pm

I guess "Buddhism-as-a-religion" stands for wholesome fabrications, wholesome thoughts and believes, conceptuality, views and dialectics.

For "Buddhism-as-Dharma" I would apply the ambiguity of the term "dharma" meaning "the teaching" and meaning "phenomenon". Combining both entails sort of " the teachings displaying itself through phenomena" and refers to a direct approach not based on conceptuality, non-discursive.


Kind regards
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Re: Buddhism-as-a-religion vs Buddhism-as-Dharma

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:05 pm

shel wrote:
You're basically saying that the difference between Buddhism-as-a-religion and Buddhism-as-Dharma is that the latter is practiced and the former is not?


Well, no, because there are many religious practices one can do, blindly, like making donations to a monastery because some Lama told you to accumulate merit. What I am saying is that Buddhism-as-Dharma is integrated into your personal experience. It means you know why are doing what you are doing when you are doing it. No blind faith.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Buddhism-as-a-religion vs Buddhism-as-Dharma

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:07 pm

TMingyur wrote:I guess "Buddhism-as-a-religion" stands for wholesome fabrications, wholesome thoughts and believes, conceptuality, views and dialectics.

For "Buddhism-as-Dharma" I would apply the ambiguity of the term "dharma" meaning "the teaching" and meaning "phenomenon". Combining both entails sort of " the teachings displaying itself through phenomena" and refers to a direct approach not based on conceptuality, non-discursive.


Kind regards


However you would like to parse to yourself as long as it is not some intellectual theory.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Buddhism-as-a-religion vs Buddhism-as-Dharma

Postby shel » Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:08 pm

TMingyur wrote:I guess "Buddhism-as-a-religion" stands for wholesome fabrications, wholesome thoughts and believes, conceptuality, views and dialectics.

For "Buddhism-as-Dharma" I would apply the ambiguity of the term "dharma" meaning "the teaching" and meaning "phenomenon". Combining both entails sort of " the teachings displaying itself through phenomena" and refers to a direct approach not based on conceptuality, non-discursive.


Kind regards

Again basically logos/praxis.

I guess my critique is that this difference is not the least bit difficult to see.
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Re: Buddhism-as-a-religion vs Buddhism-as-Dharma

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:10 pm

shel wrote:
TMingyur wrote:I guess "Buddhism-as-a-religion" stands for wholesome fabrications, wholesome thoughts and believes, conceptuality, views and dialectics.

For "Buddhism-as-Dharma" I would apply the ambiguity of the term "dharma" meaning "the teaching" and meaning "phenomenon". Combining both entails sort of " the teachings displaying itself through phenomena" and refers to a direct approach not based on conceptuality, non-discursive.


Kind regards

Again basically logos/praxis.

I guess my critique is that this difference is not the least bit difficult to see.


You might be surprised.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
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Re: Buddhism-as-a-religion vs Buddhism-as-Dharma

Postby shel » Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:22 pm

Namdrol wrote:
shel wrote:
TMingyur wrote:I guess "Buddhism-as-a-religion" stands for wholesome fabrications, wholesome thoughts and believes, conceptuality, views and dialectics.

For "Buddhism-as-Dharma" I would apply the ambiguity of the term "dharma" meaning "the teaching" and meaning "phenomenon". Combining both entails sort of " the teachings displaying itself through phenomena" and refers to a direct approach not based on conceptuality, non-discursive.


Kind regards

Again basically logos/praxis.

I guess my critique is that this difference is not the least bit difficult to see.


You might be surprised.


No, I wouldn't. I see people failing to meet the practice of their religion all the time. It's quite noticeable.
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Re: Buddhism-as-a-religion vs Buddhism-as-Dharma

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:26 pm

shel wrote:
No, I wouldn't. I see people failing to meet the practice of their religion all the time. It's quite noticeable.


I misread your statement.

My point however is a little different. There is a kind of Buddhism that is religious and so on. But it misses the point of the dharma's essence.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
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Re: Buddhism-as-a-religion vs Buddhism-as-Dharma

Postby shel » Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:34 pm

Namdrol wrote:
shel wrote:
No, I wouldn't. I see people failing to meet the practice of their religion all the time. It's quite noticeable.


I misread your statement.

My point however is a little different. There is a kind of Buddhism that is religious and so on. But it misses the point of the dharma's essence.


You suggesting that the point of 'religious' Buddhism is not the cessation of suffering?
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Re: Buddhism-as-a-religion vs Buddhism-as-Dharma

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:37 pm

shel wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
shel wrote:
No, I wouldn't. I see people failing to meet the practice of their religion all the time. It's quite noticeable.


I misread your statement.

My point however is a little different. There is a kind of Buddhism that is religious and so on. But it misses the point of the dharma's essence.


You suggesting that the point of 'religious' Buddhism is not the cessation of suffering?


Yes, because it is entirely focused on externalities.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
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Re: Buddhism-as-a-religion vs Buddhism-as-Dharma

Postby shel » Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:13 pm

Namdrol wrote:
shel wrote:You suggesting that the point of 'religious' Buddhism is not the cessation of suffering?


Yes, because it is entirely focused on externalities.

"Externalities" is a little vague. If you know that the point of religious Buddhism is not the cessation of suffering then you must know what the point of religious Buddhism is, so what is the point of religious Buddhism?
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Re: Buddhism-as-a-religion vs Buddhism-as-Dharma

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:11 pm

shel wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
shel wrote:You suggesting that the point of 'religious' Buddhism is not the cessation of suffering?


Yes, because it is entirely focused on externalities.

"Externalities" is a little vague. If you know that the point of religious Buddhism is not the cessation of suffering then you must know what the point of religious Buddhism is, so what is the point of religious Buddhism?


Higher rebirth, primarily. Also success in business, and so on.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
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Re: Buddhism-as-a-religion vs Buddhism-as-Dharma

Postby conebeckham » Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:43 pm

Stroking-of-ego?

Or is that not even Buddhism-as-religion, much less Buddhism-as-Dharma?
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Re: Buddhism-as-a-religion vs Buddhism-as-Dharma

Postby Caz » Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:06 pm

If you do a practise and you dont know why you are doing it you've got religion.
If you do a practise and can explain the benifits of doing so and demonstrate the benifits of having done so you've got Dharma. :twothumbsup:
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
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Re: Buddhism-as-a-religion vs Buddhism-as-Dharma

Postby conebeckham » Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:21 pm

I would carry it one step further, Caz...or modify it thus:

If you're doing a practice but don't know why you're doing it, this is not even truly Buddhism-as-religion, because you have not understood, even conceptually, what you're "wasting your time on"....(though, I believe, it is likely that merely doing the practice creates a connection).

If you are doing a practice, and can explain "why" you're doing it, you likely have understood Buddhism-as-a-religion, especially if you can contextualize the practice in terms of a larger structure, purpose, meaning, etc.

If you have actualized the practice, to any degree, and ultimately, if you have brought the practice to fruition, you have "Buddhism-as-Dharma." It is highly likely that, until Enlightenment is attained, even those on the Bhumis have both Buddhism-as-a-religion and Buddhism as Dharma. But only those who have reached the limit, come to the end, can really "demonstrate" fully "Buddhism-as-Dharma."
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Re: Buddhism-as-a-religion vs Buddhism-as-Dharma

Postby shel » Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:29 pm

conebeckham wrote:... only those who have reached the limit, come to the end, can really "demonstrate" fully "Buddhism-as-Dharma."

I don't know of anyone who has "come to the end," do you? which means that everyone is practicing religious Buddhism, right?
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Re: Buddhism-as-a-religion vs Buddhism-as-Dharma

Postby Jikan » Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:30 am

Might this distinction also be explained as that between:

on one side, a set of practices & imperatives one inherits from one's milieu growing up or takes up socially and, later, practices mechanically and uncritically (that is without reflection or question), toward ends that are taken for granted as good or desirable also without question or reflection

on the other side, a set of practices taken up intentionally and critically with an eye on an aim that is also taken up intentionally and critically
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Re: Buddhism-as-a-religion vs Buddhism-as-Dharma

Postby shel » Sat Apr 02, 2011 2:27 am

Jikan wrote:Might this distinction also be explained as that between:

on one side, a set of practices & imperatives one inherits from one's milieu growing up or takes up socially and, later, practices mechanically and uncritically (that is without reflection or question), toward ends that are taken for granted as good or desirable also without question or reflection

on the other side, a set of practices taken up intentionally and critically with an eye on an aim that is also taken up intentionally and critically

Being that right effort, right view, etc. are part of the path, it would seem to boil down to:

Religious Buddhism = bad practice.

Dharmic Buddhism = good practice.

Is this an agreeable distinction?
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