The Problem With Buddhists

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

Re: The Problem With Buddhists

Postby Rael » Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:25 pm

Nangwa wrote:
Rael wrote:


But...does that mean we are to shut down knowledge of other systems...explore the beauty of the human spirit.....


Not at all.
Buddhism has a long history of investigating an analyzing other traditions in a meaningful way.
Usually of course asserting eventually that Buddhism is "the best" but that's to be expected from Buddhist scholar-monks.

and indeed I am a product of "The Best"
why ...cause it works....

you know i'm into Holy Inner Alchemy in the sense i study it...
do i visualize meself an angel inside a flask with a stopper...no....

A famous modern day Alchemist did say something once of interest....and it makes me wonder...ok best sereved in another thread....one sec....
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Re: The Problem With Buddhists

Postby Rael » Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:35 pm

nah too hard to formulate so here goes.....

He pointed out he could not understand why Western bent people seeking enlightenment and what it implies for western people use Eastern bent systems when they oppose our very bent....

ok these are really not his words and are badly quoted...lol..Rael imperial Aerosol Kid destroys the written word once again...and scoffs and laughs....but i digress....lol...

sorry way too happy today....

Ok so like he said wesetern people are looking for earthly enjoyments whether they admit it or not...they want power to enhance their worldy life and Holy Alchemy affords them this....

where as Eastern mysitcs want to a abandon all earthly desires and attatchements...

so he doesn't understand why western people seek to attain this power and enhance their lives here on earth with systems ment to abodonon any chances of enjoying this life to it's full potential....

which got me to thinking....

maybe completion stage practice is strictly Buddhist....thats the whole point which i failed to recall for some odd reason....

thats the real difference....

and someone...are you reading this(?), here pointed out something along these lines that Buddhist practice and completion stage is unique in this aspect....
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Re: The Problem With Buddhists

Postby edylumiyo » Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:30 pm

Great responses here, thanks.

One issue that seems glaring to me is when choosing Buddhism specifically (and this applies to almost all other faiths/religions), we are still choosing our own interpretation (picking and choosing) of the teachings. Even "Buddhists" can't all agree on what Buddhism teaches. Often, even people within the same tradition of Buddhism can't agree on the teachings. The reason is it all comes back to our own perception and interpretation. Even the teachers of the past that have helped make a specific tradition what it is today had their own interpretations of those teachings, hence different schools and branches under those schools.

Again, I don't see an issue with using knowledge from any and all traditions to help someone along their spiritual path. As always, I respect the beliefs of them and the folks here, and I appreciate the thoughtful discussion.
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Re: The Problem With Buddhists

Postby Paul » Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:54 pm

Nangwa wrote:
Rael wrote:
Enlightenment is when you can combine compassion with sunyata....

it's not enough to understand Sunyata and become nihilistic...

the trick is combining love and compassion with Emptiness.



No it isnt.
Compassion is a natural part of the wisdom that realizes emptiness.
There is no construct or "combining" that occurs.
This idea might work for new ageys like Tolle but its not how we understand Buddhahood.


This video is well worth watching and os related closely to the emptiness/compassion thing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CauF1rAHJfU
Image

"Do not block your six senses; delight in them with joy and ease.
All that you take pleasure in will strengthen the awakened state.
With such a confidence, empowered by the regal state of natural mind,
The training now is simply this: lets your six senses be at ease and free." - Princess Parani
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Re: The Problem With Buddhists

Postby Josef » Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:17 pm

Hayagriva wrote:
Nangwa wrote:
Rael wrote:
Enlightenment is when you can combine compassion with sunyata....

it's not enough to understand Sunyata and become nihilistic...

the trick is combining love and compassion with Emptiness.



No it isnt.
Compassion is a natural part of the wisdom that realizes emptiness.
There is no construct or "combining" that occurs.
This idea might work for new ageys like Tolle but its not how we understand Buddhahood.


This video is well worth watching and os related closely to the emptiness/compassion thing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CauF1rAHJfU


Nice.
I havent watched it all yet but he really starts making the key point (much more clearly than I was trying to) at around 4.5 minutes into the teaching.
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Re: The Problem With Buddhists

Postby fragrant herbs » Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:13 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:The major problem with a "pick and choose" or "aloha amigo" approach to spirituality is the lack of depth that one will be able to achieve in any of the objects of choice.

When a "complete" system exists there is no need to turn to other systems in order to enhance it. So, for example, I know of a "new-age" group in Athens that practices traditional tai-chi, Hindu based "new-age" mediation (time therapy), seminars on sexual "tantra" and "sufi" whirling. Their tai-chi is awful, the meditations are unnecessarily complicated, the seminars are laughable travesties of tantra and their whirling is just for getting "high".

Overall outcome? A waste of their precious human life (and money).

Okay, one needs to search before they can apply themselves wholly to one system, but it seems to me that seeking/experimenting, for some people, becomes an end in itself rather than a means. Hence the Tolles and Deepraks of this world.
:namaste:


But Greg, at least they are having fun. And yes, so the Tolles and Deepaks of this world. At least these people are not out doing drugs or killing people; instead they are headed in a good direction, a spiritual high. You know, the feel goody stuff. I know because I was there. It felt good. And maybe someday they will search further; maybe not, but there is always another life. Even I don't expect this one to be my last.

But look at where I am. Once a New Ager and now trying hard to understand Buddhism.

Anyway, I am sitting here wishing I had a bag of :popcorn: because this topic is quite entertaining, as it is interesting how an article by this person can create so any comments when in fact he said nothing at all, or nothing that I could comprehend, but my life is full of a lack of comprehension. Still I like these types of topics, because at least I can understand part of them as I continue :reading:
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Re: The Problem With Buddhists

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:10 pm

Urgyen Chodron wrote:But Greg, at least they are having fun. And yes, so the Tolles and Deepaks of this world. At least these people are not out doing drugs or killing people; instead they are headed in a good direction, a spiritual high. You know, the feel goody stuff. I know because I was there. It felt good. And maybe someday they will search further; maybe not, but there is always another life. Even I don't expect this one to be my last.
Is that the goal of spiritual life? Having fun? Take the Rajneesh crowd for example (no please take them, as far away from me as possible!), they have to come up with a spiritual reason in order to have an orgy. Why don't they just have an orgy and get it over and done with? Is it really a spiritual pursuit or is that just a smokescreen for rampant sexual desire? Wouldn't it just be more honest, and even progressive, to just say: "Hey, I'm hot and horny and wanna get down and boogie!"??? See this is the problem, it's all just a disguise for consumerist dabbling: polyasian cuisine-polyreligious spiritualism. After a while it all starts to taste the same: bland, unimaginative, lacking flair, no depth or nuance.

But look at where I am. Once a New Ager and now trying hard to understand Buddhism.
Yes, but you are trying to understand, people like Rajneesh, Tolle and Chopra are not trying to understand anything: Want some sweet and sour sauce with your taco? They are bullshitting themselves and all those around them. There can be no (or very little) spiritual progress doing that. Again I would say that it would be more honest to just admit that the goal is not spiritual growth but fluffy entertainment.

And that's what I said earlier: I believe that to pass through New-ageism, to use it as a sampler or a springboard into something more serious, okay! To make it a life long pursuit? No thanks! A complete waste of time. No progress at all. Another (extraordinairly rare) human existence straight down the tube.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: The Problem With Buddhists

Postby Caz » Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:48 am

Urgyen Chodron wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:The major problem with a "pick and choose" or "aloha amigo" approach to spirituality is the lack of depth that one will be able to achieve in any of the objects of choice.

When a "complete" system exists there is no need to turn to other systems in order to enhance it. So, for example, I know of a "new-age" group in Athens that practices traditional tai-chi, Hindu based "new-age" mediation (time therapy), seminars on sexual "tantra" and "sufi" whirling. Their tai-chi is awful, the meditations are unnecessarily complicated, the seminars are laughable travesties of tantra and their whirling is just for getting "high".

Overall outcome? A waste of their precious human life (and money).

Okay, one needs to search before they can apply themselves wholly to one system, but it seems to me that seeking/experimenting, for some people, becomes an end in itself rather than a means. Hence the Tolles and Deepraks of this world.
:namaste:


But Greg, at least they are having fun. And yes, so the Tolles and Deepaks of this world. At least these people are not out doing drugs or killing people; instead they are headed in a good direction, a spiritual high. You know, the feel goody stuff. I know because I was there. It felt good. And maybe someday they will search further; maybe not, but there is always another life. Even I don't expect this one to be my last.

But look at where I am. Once a New Ager and now trying hard to understand Buddhism.

Anyway, I am sitting here wishing I had a bag of :popcorn: because this topic is quite entertaining, as it is interesting how an article by this person can create so any comments when in fact he said nothing at all, or nothing that I could comprehend, but my life is full of a lack of comprehension. Still I like these types of topics, because at least I can understand part of them as I continue :reading:


How are your studies going ? Still with Ven Tashi nyima ? :namaste:
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
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Re: The Problem With Buddhists

Postby fragrant herbs » Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:33 am

Hi Caz.

Greg, Don't be too hard on those New Agers. When i said the word "fun." i meant that they are enjoying what they are learning, and they are very serious.
Last edited by fragrant herbs on Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:02 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The Problem With Buddhists

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:56 am

Urgyen Chodron wrote:Greg, Don't be too hard on those New Agers. When I said the word "fun." I meant that they are enjoying what they are learning, and they are very serious.
Deepak Chopra has been involved in spiritual growth movements since 1981. I mean it took Moses 40 years to lead the entire tribe of Israel from Egypt to the promised land, how long will it take Deeprak to find his promised land? How serious can he be that after 30 years of research into spirituality he has still not settled into one tradition? This leads me to believe that maybe he does not want to apply himself to a single tradition. Consider that if he spent thrity years in earnest study of any spiritual system that he would definitely have a certain amount of attainment (at least in that system).
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: The Problem With Buddhists

Postby fragrant herbs » Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:40 pm

deepak is actually into the hindu tradition of religion. i just don't think that we can judge the man or his accomplishments or lack there of. i don't think that just because one is a buddhist that we are going to accomplish our goals in one lifetime. i think his religion is valid, and i hope it brings him happiness.

another point about new agers: some of my happiest years were when i was in the new age movement, and when i went and joined organized religion in the form of the hindu tradition, my years were happy, but then they became some of my most miserable years, religion-wise. it would have been better to have stayed a new ager. yes, buddhism is much better, at least for me, but if i had not meant my buddhist teacher, i would have gone back to the new age movement, which i was in the process of doing, because at least you had no teacher, but i won't get into what i think about teachers. at least they gave me the hard knocks to cause me to run away from them, which in turn led me to a teacher that had compassion.
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Re: The Problem With Buddhists

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:42 pm

Urgyen Chodron wrote:deepak is actually into the hindu tradition of religion.
Ummmmm... don't be so sure
In April 2010, Hindu American Foundation co-founder Aseem Shukla, on a Washington Post-sponsored blog on faith and religion, criticized Chopra for suggesting that yoga did not have origins in Hinduism but merely is an Indian spiritual tradition which predated Hinduism.[63] Later on, Chopra tried to explain yoga as rooted in "consciousness alone" which is a universal, non-sectarian eternal wisdom of life expounded by Vedic rishis long before historic Hinduism ever arose. He further accused Aseem Shukla of having a "fundamentalist agenda". Dr. Shukla in a rejoinder titled "Dr. Chopra: Honor thy heritage" termed Deepak Chopra as an exponent of the art of "How to Deconstruct, Repackage and Sell Hindu Philosophy Without Calling it Hindu!" and to the allegation of "fundamentalist" he responded by accusing Dr. Chopra of raising the "bogey of communalism" in frustration to divert the argument.
63.^ Shukla, Aseem. "April 28, 2010". Newsweek.washingtonpost.com. http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfa ... itage.html. Retrieved 2011-02-18.
64.^ Shukla, Aseem. "Dr. Chopra: Honor thy heritage". Newsweek.washingtonpost.com. http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfa ... itage.html. Retrieved 2011-02-18.
65.^ Shukla, Aseem. "On Faith Panelists Blog: Hinduism and Sanatana Dharma: One and the same – Aseem Shukla". Newsweek.washingtonpost.com. http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfa ... _same.html. Retrieved 2010-07-09.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: The Problem With Buddhists

Postby Rael » Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:45 pm

You know Shirly Mclean started a huge interest in Eastern culture and philosophy.

At a time when it was a dessert like region in the west for this stuff!!!!!!

i recall her on Johnny Carson discussing this strange thing called Chakras...I mean what the ?????

to middle america no less.....

and she placed these colored paper sticky deals on the appropriate spot and then placed one on his groin....

all to big laughs and Johhnny scolding her with surprise and going "Really Shirly?""

she wrote books that old ladies read about...and discovered meditation and that there was another world out their besides the bible myth....

i mean anyone see this as the Dharma Wheel in action....

beautifying america with spiritual growth in the most perfect way....

It's a stepping stone....

Depok babes is the same deal...He reaches an audience that normally would read good housekeeping and fills them with ideas and plants seeds....


harboring ill feelings of jealousness due to the money made....yeah that was me that just brought up money.... :rolling:

but it is important to see the bigger picture for human growth.....evolution brought on by the Dharma Wheel...pun intended ..fellow bored room members....
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Re: The Problem With Buddhists

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Apr 01, 2011 6:31 pm

Okay, for the third and last time: I believe it is cool when you use New-age as a stepping stone into something more "serious". My first Dharma teacher here in Greece is also a Free Mason, runs mystical Christian groups, researches Ancient Greek Mystical cults, etc... But it became quite clear (and quite quickly) that he possessed no depth of knowledge. He writes books, is financially well off and is a sweet old guy but after ONE encounter with a real lineage it became quite clear that he just didn't cut it.

Now that's fine, I hold no grudges at all and when people try to can him I stick up for him saying stuff like: "Back when he was translating the Book of the Dead" into Greek the only other spiritual path available was Greek Orthodoxy, he helped set the foundations for Buddhism in modern Greece.

BUT like the Deepak's, Rajneesh's and Tolle's he stayed there, frozen on the spot. Why? Coz worldly gains abounded (and continue to abound).

AND on the other hand, there are now genuine lineages available for people to get involved with, why would people bother standing still? Again, it's a scam. It is organised so that everyday common people cannot gain a depth of knowledge, knowledge that may even liberate them (and take the $$$'s somewhere else). You can see the same scam with the Greek Orthodox church here in Greece, the Catholic church in Italy and (dare I say it and draw the ire of all) the Buddhist "church" that existed in Tibet.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: The Problem With Buddhists

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 01, 2011 6:39 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:It is organised so that everyday common people cannot gain a depth of knowledge, knowledge that may even liberate them (and take the $$$'s somewhere else). You can see the same scam with the Greek Orthodox church here in Greece, the Catholic church in Italy and (dare I say it and draw the ire of all) the Buddhist "church" that existed in Tibet.
:namaste:



That would be the difference between Buddhism-as-a-religion and Buddhism-as-Dharma. It is sometime very difficult to differentiate that. So, we are heavily pressured to believe that we are not swans, and are not capable of separating the milk of Dharma from the water of religion.
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Re: The Problem With Buddhists

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:00 pm

Namdrol wrote:That would be the difference between Buddhism-as-a-religion and Buddhism-as-Dharma. It is sometime very difficult to differentiate that. So, we are heavily pressured to believe that we are not swans, and are not capable of separating the milk of Dharma from the water of religion.
"Problem" with the truth is (and I am talking about real truth, not mere views) is that, with a tiny amount of effort, you can spot it from a mile away. Sometimes (a lot of the time) I get the feeling that people play up their ignorance so that they can then use it as an excuse for their destructive behaviour. Willful ignorance. Is that a new one? Should I patent it and write a series of books on it? Maybe sell them for mega $$$'s and surround myself with hot chicks and fast cars?
Anybody wanna be my manager?
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: The Problem With Buddhists

Postby shel » Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:32 pm

gregkavarnos wrote: Willful ignorance. Is that a new one?

No, the word is 'troglodytism'. Ancient but still widely practiced today. That by no means limits marketing opportunities. There's nothing new under the sun, as the saying goes, just new packaging... like the Power of Now, for instance.
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Re: The Problem With Buddhists

Postby LastLegend » Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:57 pm

Well the problem with Buddhists is they are too aggressive especially the ones on this forum. :bow:
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Re: The Problem With Buddhists

Postby plwk » Sat Apr 02, 2011 5:08 pm

Image
Really LastLegend? :tongue:
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Re: The Problem With Buddhists

Postby Caz » Sat Apr 02, 2011 5:26 pm

Urgyen Chodron wrote:Hi Caz,

Yes, I am still with Tashi, and my studies are doing fine. Thanks for asking.

Greg, Don't be too hard on those New Agers. When i said the word "fun." i meant that they are enjoying what they are learning, and they are very serious.


Wonderful my friend you are very lucky to have Venerable Tashi Nyima he is a shinning example of a practitoner, May your practise be fruitful ! :thumbsup:
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
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