The Problem With Buddhists

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

Re: The Problem With Buddhists

Postby Josef » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:25 pm

Rael wrote:
Nangwa wrote:
Rael wrote:



No it isnt.
Compassion is a natural part of the wisdom that realizes emptiness.
There is no construct or "combining" that occurs.
This idea might work for new ageys like Tolle but its not how we understand Buddhahood.


ah the purity card....heh heheh......

there is a danger in discovering sunyata and that one is total nihilism....temper it with compassion and voila....

one must temper it ....


Not sure where pulled any card, let alone the "purity card".
Sunyata is not total nihilism nor is it a conditioned state precisely because its not a combination of separate attributes and it is also not a mere vacum of qualities, but rather the actual condition of reality.
Free from extremes.
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Re: The Problem With Buddhists

Postby Malcolm » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:27 pm

Rael wrote:.did i tell you i'm mad as a march hare...and speak me mind far to openly...lol...in real life too it seems :broke:

modding is such sweet sorrow...i loathe it .... :crazy: ....lol

welcome a bored


You didn't have to tell me...

Plain speaking is a virtue.

It is sad when people see you through a reputation they have projected.
Last edited by Malcolm on Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Problem With Buddhists

Postby Rael » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:43 pm

Nangwa wrote:
Not sure where pulled any card, let alone the "purity card".
Sunyata is not total nihilism nor is it a conditioned state precisely because its not a combination of separate attributes and it is also not a mere vacum of qualities, but rather the actual condition of reality.
Free from extremes.

An


meh someone said something about new agers and stuff...don't matter....

ok let me make it clearer, the danger in discovering Sunyata is one can view it as nihilistic...get hung up on that aspect that is there....but as we know ..is not really there....compassion and love when viewed with a proper view of sunyata is enlightenemnet....a level as such and then i went mad and tried to say something for the other nutcases on the bored....

k..?

understanding nihilism is an aid to come to terms with Sunyata...

just like understanding people that view things inherant are wrong also...

a good example of inherent existance is the Hindu transmigrating atman...

the atman is a created thing...that becomes inherant ...totally missing the point...

but a study of such and an understanding of such ....helps.....
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Re: The Problem With Buddhists

Postby Tara » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:48 pm

Rael wrote:the rumor mill is awash...


Hmmm rumours .... maybe if rumours are actually being spread Image, the rumour monger/s perhaps are deluded into thinking there is whole heap of time to spare to do such things ....

If anyone wants to know the facts, i.e. whether there is a discussion about the possibility of people with potential being asked whether they would consider a position as moderator (or any other query with regard to the running of this website), here is a suggestion, ask one of the Administrators or one of the existing moderators .... after all it is hardly a good idea to add to the already huge amount of delusion currently swathing Samsara Image....

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Maybe you collect a lot of important writings,
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If you haven’t practiced, books won’t help you when you die.
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Re: The Problem With Buddhists

Postby Mr. G » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:56 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Not on your life. Being a moderator is just a headache.


True...and it's a lot of work sometimes

Thread has been cleaned up.

:focus:
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
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Re: The Problem With Buddhists

Postby Josef » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:03 pm

Rael wrote:
Nangwa wrote:
Not sure where pulled any card, let alone the "purity card".
Sunyata is not total nihilism nor is it a conditioned state precisely because its not a combination of separate attributes and it is also not a mere vacum of qualities, but rather the actual condition of reality.
Free from extremes.

An


meh someone said something about new agers and stuff...don't matter....

ok let me make it clearer, the danger in discovering Sunyata is one can view it as nihilistic...get hung up on that aspect that is there....but as we know ..is not really there....compassion and love when viewed with a proper view of sunyata is enlightenemnet.....




If one actually "discovers" sunyata there is no danger of nihilism because sunyata is not nihilism. If one intellectually encounters the concepts of sunyata without understanding the actual meaning and teachings then yes, there is a danger of developing the extreme view of nihilism.
No "view" is enlightenment, no matter what we combine with it. Compassion is a natural attribute of the wisdom that realizes emptiness and a natural manifestation of the energetic capacity of a Buddha.
Combining right view with compassion is not Buddhahood in and of itself. One must fully realize their true condition as fully integrated with the three kaya's etc. At that point the natural capacity of bodhicitta manifests.
Bodhicitta and wisdom are not separate when it comes to Buddhahood.
Last edited by Josef on Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Problem With Buddhists

Postby Rael » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:06 pm

Namdrol wrote:
plwk wrote:It's all... here
What do you think? A valid observation or just a rant or both?

:anjali:


Proof of rebirth -- this guy was bounced from e-sangha. And what do you know, here he is again...


this is where the thread went south... :oops:
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Re: The Problem With Buddhists

Postby Chaz » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:09 pm

Rael wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
plwk wrote:It's all... here
What do you think? A valid observation or just a rant or both?

:anjali:


Proof of rebirth -- this guy was bounced from e-sangha. And what do you know, here he is again...


this is where the thread went south... :oops:



Yes, and strangly enough is a post that missed being "cleaned up". Probably just an oversight. Nothing to get all weirded- out over.

:popcorn:
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Re: The Problem With Buddhists

Postby Mr. G » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:13 pm

Rael wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
plwk wrote:It's all... here
What do you think? A valid observation or just a rant or both?

:anjali:


Proof of rebirth -- this guy was bounced from e-sangha. And what do you know, here he is again...


this is where the thread went south... :oops:


Pointing out another non-Buddhist in the guise of a Buddhist who denies rebirth is not where the thread went south. Considering the link was in the very first post by the OP...I'd say it's very on topic.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
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Re: The Problem With Buddhists

Postby Mr. G » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:14 pm

Chaz wrote:Yes, and strangly enough is a post that missed being "cleaned up". Probably just an oversight. Nothing to get all weirded- out over.

:popcorn:


No oversight Chaz, read my previous post. If we have a link that's under discussion...it'll be discussed.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: The Problem With Buddhists

Postby Kyosan » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:30 pm

Rael wrote:....there is a danger in discovering sunyata and that one is total nihilism....temper it with compassion and voila....

one must temper it ....

In the Sutra of Innumerable Meanings, the Buddha says first contemplate and understand the void nature of all things. Then raise the mind of great compassion desiring to save all sentient beings. Then again contemplate the void nature of all things.

It's my understanding that when one contemplates voidness with a mind of great compassion one is able to comprehend a more profound voidness.
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Re: The Problem With Buddhists

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:02 pm

Did I miss the bunfight?! :popcorn:
Damn! I luv a good bunfight! Did anybody get a nosebleed?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: The Problem With Buddhists

Postby Malcolm » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:09 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Did I miss the bunfight?! :popcorn:
Damn! I luv a good bunfight! Did anybody get a nosebleed?



Nah, just usual internet schoolyard recess behavior.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: The Problem With Buddhists

Postby Rael » Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:00 am

Kyosan wrote:
Rael wrote:....there is a danger in discovering sunyata and that one is total nihilism....temper it with compassion and voila....

one must temper it ....

In the Sutra of Innumerable Meanings, the Buddha says first contemplate and understand the void nature of all things. Then raise the mind of great compassion desiring to save all sentient beings. Then again contemplate the void nature of all things.

It's my understanding that when one contemplates voidness with a mind of great compassion one is able to comprehend a more profound voidness.


thanks for that....
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Re: The Problem With Buddhists

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:32 am

The major problem with a "pick and choose" or "aloha amigo" approach to spirituality is the lack of depth that one will be able to achieve in any of the objects of choice.

When a "complete" system exists there is no need to turn to other systems in order to enhance it. So, for example, I know of a "new-age" group in Athens that practices traditional tai-chi, Hindu based "new-age" mediation (time therapy), seminars on sexual "tantra" and "sufi" whirling. Their tai-chi is awful, the meditations are unnecessarily complicated, the seminars are laughable travesties of tantra and their whirling is just for getting "high".

Overall outcome? A waste of their precious human life (and money).

Normally when one is a jack-of-all-trades they are a master of none because their time is taken up in shallow penetration instead of in-depth investigation.

Vajrayana has its "meditations", its yoga, its dances (cham) it's tantra, etc... and ALL of these activities are united in their goal of reaching enlightenment. This way they neither conflict in their philosophical basis, nor waste ones precious time.

Okay, one needs to search before they can apply themselves wholly to one system, but it seems to me that seeking/experimenting, for some people, becomes an end in itself rather than a means. Hence the Tolles and Deepraks of this world.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: The Problem With Buddhists

Postby edylumiyo » Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:45 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:The major problem with a "pick and choose" or "aloha amigo" approach to spirituality is the lack of depth that one will be able to achieve in any of the objects of choice.

When a "complete" system exists there is no need to turn to other systems in order to enhance it. So, for example, I know of a "new-age" group in Athens that practices traditional tai-chi, Hindu based "new-age" mediation (time therapy), seminars on sexual "tantra" and "sufi" whirling. Their tai-chi is awful, the meditations are unnecessarily complicated, the seminars are laughable travesties of tantra and their whirling is just for getting "high".

Overall outcome? A waste of their precious human life (and money).

Normally when one is a jack-of-all-trades they are a master of none because their time is taken up in shallow penetration instead of in-depth investigation.

Vajrayana has its "meditations", its yoga, its dances (cham) it's tantra, etc... and ALL of these activities are united in their goal of reaching enlightenment. This way they neither conflict in their philosophical basis, nor waste ones precious time.

Okay, one needs to search before they can apply themselves wholly to one system, but it seems to me that seeking/experimenting, for some people, becomes an end in itself rather than a means. Hence the Tolles and Deepraks of this world.
:namaste:


Excellent explanation, Greg. Thanks for taking your time to respond.

I completely understand the thoughts and reasoning you are talking about. In a lot of cases, you are probably right, that people use it as an end, rather than a means. To be honest though, I don't really see an issue with that. If that is the spiritual path someone wants to take, I have no standing to say it is or isn't a proper approach.

With that being said, I know there are phony groups, gurus, and teachers out there, but I think we can agree that they don't represent all teachers that speak of a spiritual path where there is discussion of different traditions.

Either way, we each have to find what works for us as individuals, whether we all agree on the method or not. I appreciate the discussion on the topic and hope you are all well.
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Re: The Problem With Buddhists

Postby Rael » Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:49 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:The major problem with a "pick and choose" or "aloha amigo" approach to spirituality is the lack of depth that one will be able to achieve in any of the objects of choice.

When a "complete" system exists there is no need to turn to other systems in order to enhance it.
Normally when one is a jack-of-all-trades they are a master of none because their time is taken up in shallow penetration instead of in-depth investigation.

Vajrayana has its "meditations", its yoga, its dances (cham) it's tantra, etc... and ALL of these activities are united in their goal of reaching enlightenment. This way they neither conflict in their philosophical basis, nor waste ones precious time.


:namaste:





Greg!!!!
ya did it again....winkety wink...
ok so like i'm off to bed and i was ragging on this post in me head....

{[(yes folks way too much time on me hands and the internet does mean something to me...and what happens on it with moi...)]}


then i wake up this morn and was going to start a thread on it...and BAM!!! you nail it....for me....

thanks Greg....

ok here is the post and the ragging....
mr. gordo wrote: Pointing out another non-Buddhist in the guise of a Buddhist who denies rebirth is not where the thread went south. Considering the link was in the very first post by the OP...I'd say it's very on topic.


So like i felt a witch hunt here....and i used the phrase purity card in this thread....got a response in unkind..

His Holiness once spoke the same words as you...We should not mix other religions...

My teacher the Tulku , gave Sarasvati initiation and had a four headed Lord Ganesa in His bedroom , talked of a Lord Ganesa initiation.

I asked Him about this mixing and He said Hinduism and Buddhism isn't really what His holiness means...

ok. :thinking:

Then the whole Dharma Wheel thing and the time Geshe La told me even Christianity is from the Buddha's turning of the Dharma Wheel...i went a lil nutso with "but they believe in God" and He just laughed and said but look at the work and they way they try to live a good life....

a series of taming one's minds came into play and the value of teachings that do so....


Now Greg back to you ...i feel like your Padwaan ...lol....it's like the Holy Spirit inspires you to post to me stuff i need....

ROFL at the thought of the shudders of heresy running through the forum as Rael uses the words Holy Spirit to explain something...actually a very cool thing that has happened twice in a short time with Greg ...

"See see he used the words Holy Spirit"...He is another non Buddhist come to disturb the peace of the bun fighting forum of Buddhists!!!"


Greg your right...without complete dedication and focus and total commitment and Faith..any religious endeavor is thwarted...add mixing beliefs and systems and it is a recipe for disaster....

But...does that mean we are to shut down knowledge of other systems...explore the beauty of the human spirit.....

I have proposed that completion stage practices are not the sole ownership of Buddhists....that does not mean one can willy nilly mix a bunch of stuff and hope for the best....

True..for me the most lucid refined system is the Buddhist system....

but i can't just sit back and allow people to imply that Buddhism is the only "True Path" or what ever....

i feel strongly that the Buddha and Jesus Christ were the same guy....do i follow the Gospels of Christ...sort of...Do i pray to God the Father...no...thats like some Constantine weirdness...Do i worship Christ like i Worship Our Lord Buddha....No for Christ's teachings are not Buddhist.....but that does not mean the validity of Christ's teachings , even in the corrupt stages they are , are not valid.....

and as a note i did not realize that the guy who started this thread is a non Buddhist ..lol...and does not believe in reincarnation...although i recall a bun fight over this...

hey did i ever tell you the time in High School i actually had Bun fights in the back of hamburger franchise...

we would even use the meat at times and stuff...pick it up off the floor and cook it for people....teenagers gone mad from making money off meat use......


disclaimer: any ad hominminims are meant to be Buddhist Revival Tent stuff... :rolling:
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Re: The Problem With Buddhists

Postby Josef » Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:57 pm

Rael wrote:


But...does that mean we are to shut down knowledge of other systems...explore the beauty of the human spirit.....


Not at all.
Buddhism has a long history of investigating an analyzing other traditions in a meaningful way.
Usually of course asserting eventually that Buddhism is "the best" but that's to be expected from Buddhist scholar-monks.
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Re: The Problem With Buddhists

Postby Malcolm » Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:09 pm

Nangwa wrote:
Rael wrote:


But...does that mean we are to shut down knowledge of other systems...explore the beauty of the human spirit.....


Not at all.
Buddhism has a long history of investigating an analyzing other traditions in a meaningful way.
Usually of course asserting eventually that Buddhism is "the best" but that's to be expected from Buddhist scholar-monks.



Meaningful to Buddhists at any rate -- I don't think Hindus feel well represented by Buddhist tenet system literature.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: The Problem With Buddhists

Postby Josef » Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:12 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Nangwa wrote:
Rael wrote:


But...does that mean we are to shut down knowledge of other systems...explore the beauty of the human spirit.....


Not at all.
Buddhism has a long history of investigating an analyzing other traditions in a meaningful way.
Usually of course asserting eventually that Buddhism is "the best" but that's to be expected from Buddhist scholar-monks.



Meaningful to Buddhists at any rate -- I don't think Hindus feel well represented by Buddhist tenet system literature.

Thats definitely true.
The point I was trying to make is that the idea of comparing and investigating other traditions has a long standing place in Buddhism.
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