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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:52 am 
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Buddha/Dharma/Sangha="Awakened" (from all ignorance)/Truth/and Purity (not polluted)

How do you understand these?
and
How do you apply these into practice?

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must not be afraid of losing your bodies and your lives―


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:52 pm 
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LastLegend wrote:
Buddha/Dharma/Sangha="Awakened" (from all ignorance)/Truth/and Purity (not polluted)

How do you understand these?
and
How do you apply these into practice?


Personally, I understand these to be like three precious jewels in terms of their value.

I apply this by taking refuge in them, and practicing the instructions of great masters.
:meditate:


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:46 am 
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dakini_boi wrote:
LastLegend wrote:
Buddha/Dharma/Sangha="Awakened" (from all ignorance)/Truth/and Purity (not polluted)

How do you understand these?
and
How do you apply these into practice?


Personally, I understand these to be like three precious jewels in terms of their value.

I apply this by taking refuge in them, and practicing the instructions of great masters.
:meditate:


May I ask where is "them?" In other words, where can you find the three precious jewels?

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must not be afraid of losing your bodies and your lives―


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:31 am 
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The three jewels have different levels of interpretation, if you will. The outer level is the historical Buddha, the teachings and the assembly.
A more profound level is related to the teaching that goes like "Who sees the Dharma, sees the Buddha", thus the practice has given its fruit and so the two first jewels are the same and the third is the assembly that has realized such, thus being the embodiment of the Dharma. If you go further then you take refuge in the primordial state if you will.
If you ask where are these jewels, the question may be faulty depending on the level you are inquiring. If conventionally, a representation of the Buddha, the Tripitaka and the ordained Sangha, wherever you may find them. If you are asking meaning the most profound level, then the question is faulty, since you try to apply concepts to what goes beyond them.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:20 am 
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There are 3 reasons for refuge:

1.
I cannot remain in this life - I soon die - and after death, I am under control of my karma. Virtuous karma is weak and nonvirtuous karma is exceedingly powerful.
I.e. the fear of the miserable realms and conviction that the three jewels can protect me from them. (Lamrim)

2.
Being disgusted by samsara and wanting be liberated from it and knowing that the 3 refuges are the only means to get liberated.

3.
Seeing not only one's own misery but that one's own misery is the same as the misery of all fellow beings and based on compassion to decide to put an end to one's own misery in order to be able to put an end to the misery of all fellow beings and knowing that the 3 refuges are the only means to achieve that.


The way you go for refuge:
1. by knowing the good qualities of Buddha, Dharma, Sangha
2. by knowing the distinctions of Buddha, Dharma, Sangha
3. through commitment
4. by refusing to acknowledge other refuges
(Lamrim)
In essence: Veneration and practice according to instructions.


Kind regards


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:07 am 
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Dechen Norbu wrote:
The three jewels have different levels of interpretation, if you will. The outer level is the historical Buddha, the teachings and the assembly.
A more profound level is related to the teaching that goes like "Who sees the Dharma, sees the Buddha", thus the practice has given its fruit and so the two first jewels are the same and the third is the assembly that has realized such, thus being the embodiment of the Dharma. If you go further then you take refuge in the primordial state if you will.
If you ask where are these jewels, the question may be faulty depending on the level you are inquiring. If conventionally, a representation of the Buddha, the Tripitaka and the ordained Sangha, wherever you may find them. If you are asking meaning the most profound level, then the question is faulty, since you try to apply concepts to what goes beyond them.


What does the 3 jewels mean to you at practically level?

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must not be afraid of losing your bodies and your lives―


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:22 am 
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TMingyur wrote:
There are 3 reasons for refuge:

1.
I cannot remain in this life - I soon die - and after death, I am under control of my karma. Virtuous karma is weak and nonvirtuous karma is exceedingly powerful.
I.e. the fear of the miserable realms and conviction that the three jewels can protect me from them. (Lamrim)

2.
Being disgusted by samsara and wanting be liberated from it and knowing that the 3 refuges are the only means to get liberated.

3.
Seeing not only one's own misery but that one's own misery is the same as the misery of all fellow beings and based on compassion to decide to put an end to one's own misery in order to be able to put an end to the misery of all fellow beings and knowing that the 3 refuges are the only means to achieve that.


The way you go for refuge:
1. by knowing the good qualities of Buddha, Dharma, Sangha
2. by knowing the distinctions of Buddha, Dharma, Sangha
3. through commitment
4. by refusing to acknowledge other refuges
(Lamrim)
In essence: Veneration and practice according to instructions.


Kind regards


Very well. You have decided to turn away from darkness (ignorance) and walking towards lights (3 Jewels of Mind).

Are those qualities inherent in Mind? Certainly the refuge is not in the statue, sutras, and sangha as these things can be destroyed easily. So who/what do you rely on but yourself?

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NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

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―Listen! Those of you who devote yourselves to the Dharma
must not be afraid of losing your bodies and your lives―


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:31 am 
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LastLegend wrote:
Very well. You have decided to turn away from darkness (ignorance) and walking towards lights (3 Jewels of Mind).

Are those qualities inherent in Mind? Certainly the refuge is not in the statue, sutras, and sangha as these things can be destroyed easily. So who/what do you rely on but yourself?


Mind is consciousness and consciousness is impermanent.

Kind regards


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:36 am 
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The teachings of the Buddha is Dharma and those who transmit are the Sangha. There is reliance.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:39 am 
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TMingyur wrote:
The teachings of the Buddha is Dharma and those who transmit are the Sangha. There is reliance.


Kind regards


Indeed and the practice starts with oneself

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NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Linjii
―Listen! Those of you who devote yourselves to the Dharma
must not be afraid of losing your bodies and your lives―


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:45 am 
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LastLegend wrote:
Indeed and the practice starts with oneself


"Oneself"?

First there is contact, feeling and perception. Signs that are meaningless as such cause meaning and understanding. That is the beginning of "practice".


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:54 am 
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In that way the cognition of Buddha sign, Dharma sign and Sangha sign is the basis of refuge. If there would be no such cognition refuge and therefore liberation would not be possible.
Capacity to cognize Buddha, Dharma and Sangha therefore is reason to rejoice.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:53 pm 
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LastLegend,

Refuge sums up the whole path and it gets deeper in meaning as one progresses.
One doesn't start by taking refuge in oneself, since what we know about ourselves when we start the path is exactly what we take refuge from.
So first we have the outer level of refuge. From a never ending cycle of suffering, we take refuge in the Buddha, his teachings and those practicing them. This is the outer level of refuge. It's closely related to the understanding of the 4 Noble Truths. You see Duhkha, its causes, hypothesize a state beyond Duhkha attained by the Buddha and, to realize it yourself you follow the teachings helped by those who already do it. Seems wise.
This is how one starts. One doesn't immediately start taking refuge in Buddhanature (even if one does so in fact, one doesn't realize it properly), as one has no clue about it. With practice Dharma becomes more experiential, going deeper than a simple intellectual understanding. Depending on the tradition the practice changes a bit. For instance, a practitioner of Dzogchen, while remaining in the recognition of rigpa, is always in refuge.
Practically speaking, taking refuge is not simply something one recites. It sets the right tone for formal practice, but it doesn't end there. Taking refuge is living according to Buddhadharma, meaning living mindfully and not getting distracted while having a correct view (the absence of views always translates itself as having a view when we act, e.g. not harming others). So in a way, taking refuge is both the beginning and the whole of the practice, formal and not formal. Taking refuge is living accordingly to the teachings, teachings that we understand deeper and deeper the more we practice, and that is being a Buddhist.
In a nutshell, that's about it.
Now, if you allow me the indiscretion, why do you ask? What is more important is knowing what the Three Jewels mean to to you. From what I've read in the thread, seems to me you have some good ideas about refuge, but you need to clarify them (to yourself) a little better. Taking refuge in "oneself" may be read differently. If you mean taking refuge in your own Buddha nature that's fine, but if by oneself you mean the aggregates, then you head to trouble.
I hope my answer was to your satisfaction.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:23 pm 
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LastLegend wrote:
dakini_boi wrote:
LastLegend wrote:
Buddha/Dharma/Sangha="Awakened" (from all ignorance)/Truth/and Purity (not polluted)

How do you understand these?
and
How do you apply these into practice?


Personally, I understand these to be like three precious jewels in terms of their value.

I apply this by taking refuge in them, and practicing the instructions of great masters.
:meditate:


May I ask where is "them?" In other words, where can you find the three precious jewels?


Wait, who's asking this? I'm not going to answer any more questions until you can prove to me that the one who calls himself LastLegend exists! :tongue:


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:20 am 
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DN,

To elaborate on what you said:

For those who seem to to be stuck on forms they would say Buddha never asked people to rely on him. Buddha was very humble but we should know that all that he said came from puried Buddha Nature in that he did not rely on thinking and other consciousnesses of the disturbed Mind/Buddha Nature. But what he said came from pure emptiness or purified Buddha Nature. In terms of Buddha/Dharma/Sangha or more accurately "Awakened/Truth/Pure" which we should rely on as these things are inherent in our Buddha Nature and Buddha. On the practical level, we start excuting practice with ourselves (Where exactly? For example start looking at our mistakes and fixing them by following teachings). In other words, we should only rely on ourselves for practice with diligence. This is to dispell superstition about where to seek for Buddha.

After one sees through ("Awakened"), he/she is practicing Truth or Dharma teachings in his everyday in every aspect.

Another way to look at "Awakened/Truth/Pure" is through looking at people's abilities. "Awakened" represents spiritual genius who after hearing a few word becomes enlightened instantly. Like Hui Neng for example. The rest of us belong to the middle and the lower doors. But the three doors cannot be separated. Entering one door is entering all. For example, Huing Neng after awakened still maintained Truth and of course Pure. Personally, I practice Pure Land to enter the lower door of Pure and once entered, there will be "Awakened" and "Truth" as well.

Regarding to oneself, oneself or self is Mind. Where else is there besides Mind? Self is the disturbed side of Mind, Buddha is the Pure side of Mind. So here we do not take one and reject other. Wholesome here is a very big concept as we look at the teachings and practice closely we will see.

My motive here is to share, humbly of course as I am still learning. But I want to be accurate and clear as possible in what being said in threads. Is my motive pure? Nope for I still react.

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NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

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―Listen! Those of you who devote yourselves to the Dharma
must not be afraid of losing your bodies and your lives―


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:02 pm 
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There are a few points I would disagree with like relying only in ourselves that may exclude listening to the advice of elder sangha, advice of masters and the written Dharma, etc., Awakened representing spiritual genius, Buddha being the pure side of mind - maybe because our traditions are different, but Buddhahood is beyond mind- self being only disturbed mind -what about the other aggregates?- and so on, but probably you have access to teachers and texts to clarify all that if you feel the need.
What really matters is that you are learning and practicing, as am I (hopefully). Reading your feedback is very much appreciated. Keep sharing and I'll keep reading you.

Best wishes!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:29 am 
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LastLegend wrote:
Regarding to oneself, oneself or self is Mind. Where else is there besides Mind? Self is the disturbed side of Mind, Buddha is the Pure side of Mind. So here we do not take one and reject other. Wholesome here is a very big concept as we look at the teachings and practice closely we will see.


Identifying "self" with one of the perishing aggregates ("mind") is wrong view. It is wrong view in that it perpetuates ignorance. The Buddha taught the aggregates as a means of negating the thought "I" and "mine" (which are the experiential aspects of the abstract thought "self"). Actually the teaching of the aggregates is an affirming negation: "I" and "mine" are negated and mere ("selfless") experience affirmed.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:43 am 
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Dechen Norbu wrote:
There are a few points I would disagree with like relying only in ourselves that may exclude listening to the advice of elder sangha, advice of masters and the written Dharma, etc., Awakened representing spiritual genius, Buddha being the pure side of mind - maybe because our traditions are different, but Buddhahood is beyond mind- self being only disturbed mind -what about the other aggregates?- and so on, but probably you have access to teachers and texts to clarify all that if you feel the need.
What really matters is that you are learning and practicing, as am I (hopefully). Reading your feedback is very much appreciated. Keep sharing and I'll keep reading you.

Best wishes!


It is important to have a deep understanding of the teachings.

Aggregates would be like a rock without Mind.

Lastly, don't be stuck on forms especially words as words have their limits in explaining and conveying. :bow:

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―Listen! Those of you who devote yourselves to the Dharma
must not be afraid of losing your bodies and your lives―


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