Abolish Money for Buddha's favors....

[Rael]

this place has afforded me well...I get to put out there my inner most thoughts about Buddhism and come to terms with those thoughts better...

ok...so here is a biggy with me...First up a disclaimer...these threads i make are important to me...if you feel they are trolling welllllll they are not....I think my knowledge of Buddhism, though meager, at least proves that I've been around...

Sitting in a meeting when it came to ask any question i asked this publicly of Rinpoche and he only shrugged laughed and said something along the lines of "good question".....

It's never quite clear that giving money and stuff is not really going to help you...

the Buddha tells us not look at any god or demon or even Him for help.
Thats from the Lotus Sutra....And yet you see temples filled with people looking for fortune and praying directly to images of Buddha for things...offering incences , flowers, and such....

People crying at funerals and such....

Hoping the wedding performed brings them good luck....

burning fake money for the dead ....weirdness beyond weirdness for me to see....

Buddha Dzambahla initiation practices...
Actually that one helped me a lot in business oddly enough...but i knew it was me...but then again the setting always gives one the idea of help from above.....

If you are familiar with Medicine Buddha and the Seven Sugatas practice...you call forth from pure lands Buddhas to help you....again i realize it is us ...but there is always that lil tick of maybe help from above......


so here is the questions...

first up...any one know of suttas or sutras where they say the same as the Lotus Sutra....again my angst of being burned badly by the introduction of this Sutra from the Nichiren folk....lest not go there...but you people know me problems with it....

and second....do you think it is time for like the clergy of all Buddhist sects to stop accepting money for Buddha's favours...

that would be a great step in combating the weird maybe He can Help me....attitudes we so need to get over.

ok a third question....

even though it is mentioned in the Lotus Sutra to not seek help from others including the Buddha....

??????is there a chance that Buddha's can help you????.....

tons of people seem to think so....and many a clergyman woman accepts money to do things for you......

[Jikan]

first up...any one know of suttas or sutras where they say the same as the Lotus Sutra....again my angst of being burned badly by the introduction of this Sutra from the Nichiren folk....lest not go there...but you people know me problems with it....

The Lotus Sutra makes a number of claims, so depending on which of those themes you're looking for, you'll find them in different texts. For the overall Ekayana treatment, take a look at the Srimaladevi Sutra (translated as The Lion's Roar of Queen Srimala), for instance. There are a number of texts considered canonical in East Asian Buddhism that carry forward themes very much like that of the Lotus Sutra; the Sutra of Complete Enlightenment, for instance, presents a similar teaching on Buddha-nature. The Surangama Sutra includes a passage that looks a lot to me like LS Chap. 25 on Avalokiteshvara. And so on.

The Lotus Sutra is a Mahayana sutra, one of many, one of a class of others like it. In my opinion, a lot of the claims made on its uniqueness by some of my friends in Japanese Buddhist schools are a bit overblown. <hides behind a rock>

and second....do you think it is time for like the clergy of all Buddhist sects to stop accepting money for Buddha's favours...

that would be a great step in combating the weird maybe He can Help me....attitudes we so need to get over.

I think things work best on a donation basis. But if you want to create a karmic link with a teacher and a temple, the most expedient way to do it is to support the work done there and the lives of those who do it with a cash donation. My two bits.

even though it is mentioned in the Lotus Sutra to not seek help from others including the Buddha....

??????is there a chance that Buddha's can help you????....

I'd say it's a 100% likelihood that myriads of Buddhas are helping you and the fleas on your dog too.

[Rael]

Jikan , thanks for your effort...but nothing you said is actually addressing my inept attempt to get something in my mind solved....

why your the only one who viewed and commented is beyond me...i think it is due to the fact it rubs way too many toes in the way i present my problems....

i'll try to say it clearer...

any suttas or sutras besides LS that claim no one can help you except yourself...hence why bother alluding to the fact Buddhas can help you other than their training....

conning for dollars seems to annoy the bejeevers outta me as of late and i'm alluding to that as well.....

[Jikan]

any suttas or sutras besides LS that claim no one can help you except yourself...hence why bother alluding to the fact Buddhas can help you other than their training....

conning for dollars seems to annoy the bejeevers outta me as of late and i'm alluding to that as well.....

Hi Rael,

Thanks for clarifying! I think that's progress...

Now, are you sure the Lotus Sutra says that no one can help someone but oneself? I have a different understanding of it for what it's worth...

Also, can you give a specific example of how someone twists the Dharma to justify conning for dollars as you say? It's easier to pull the rug out from under that sort of nonsense when you know which rug to pull.

[Blue Garuda]

if you are talking of the West, I think there is the usual range of honesty and secrecy.

If I attend an event I find it helpful if there is a guide to help me make a donation which covers the costs of hiring the building, travel, refreshments etc. The actual teaching/empowerment is free, but costs need to be covered. Even so, most state quite clearly that lack of money should be no barrier to attendance.

At the other extreme, we have 'fee' payment, and maybe some vague suggestion that you are helping world peace etc etc

That's a simplistic overview, and IMHO it is far more important to check out how the funds are to be used, than to worry about the vocabulary.

[Kyosan]

the Buddha tells us not look at any god or demon or even Him for help.
Thats from the Lotus Sutra....And yet you see temples filled with people looking for fortune and praying directly to images of Buddha for things...offering incences , flowers, and such....

Could you quote where it says this in the Lotus Sutra? It seems to me that the Buddha not helping us goes against the spirit of the Lotus Sutra.

In chapter 2 of the Lotus Sutra it says that the Buddha would like to immediately reveal the Buddha wisdom to us but we are unable to understand. By using expedient methods he is able to eventually bring us to the point where we can understand the Buddha wisdom. From this it's clear that the Buddha is helping us. The Buddha and samgha helps us by pointing the way with expedient methods but we must still walk the path ourselves.

I agree that some Buddhists try to use Buddhism for material gain; I have seen it happen myself. To me that is misuse of Buddhism. Some people practice it because they want to be reborn in a happier world. I think that's OK but the ultimate purpose of Buddhism is to awaken and to become Buddhas ourselves.

[Heruka]

respectfully, collect $200 and move straight to go.

[Rael]

the Buddha tells us not look at any god or demon or even Him for help.
Thats from the Lotus Sutra....And yet you see temples filled with people looking for fortune and praying directly to images of Buddha for things...offering incences , flowers, and such....

Could you quote where it says this in the Lotus Sutra? It seems to me that the Buddha not helping us goes against the spirit of the Lotus Sutra.

In chapter 2 of the Lotus Sutra it says that the Buddha would like to immediately reveal the Buddha wisdom to us but we are unable to understand. By using expedient methods he is able to eventually bring us to the point where we can understand the Buddha wisdom. From this it's clear that the Buddha is helping us. The Buddha and samgha helps us by pointing the way with expedient methods but we must still walk the path ourselves.

I agree that some Buddhists try to use Buddhism for material gain; I have seen it happen myself. To me that is misuse of Buddhism. Some people practice it because they want to be reborn in a happier world. I think that's OK but the ultimate purpose of Buddhism is to awaken and to become Buddhas ourselves.

iy might not be from the lotus sutra...

somewhere the Buddha made claim not to seek help from demons gods or himself even.....yes / no?

and then you have millions making offerings for things....all whilst the priests and monks watch on.....

thats the point of the OP

[Adamantine]

How can you cultivate the paramita of generosity without giving? How can you cut through the deep habit of grasping without giving more than is comfortable? Perhaps the priests and monks look on as people make offerings, and are feeling glad that people are parting from attachment, not parting from wealth. Perhaps they look on and feel glad that people are cultivating generosity, not that they themselves are getting richer. . . Perhaps they look on and feel happy that people are gaining the wealth of merit by offering to the Three Jewels, not that the Three Jewels have any concepts of gain or loss. . .

It is impossible to judge anyone from appearances alone, especially someone that may have realization. It is best to examine one's own mind in all actions, and as lojong training indicates: as soon as a negative state arises, firmly face and avert it. Other than examining closely someone we are considering taking as our Guru, there is usually not benefit from looking for others faults. We have plenty of our own and they condition how we will perceive the motivations of others.

[Rael]

How can you cultivate the paramita of generosity without giving? How can you cut through the deep habit of grasping without giving more than is comfortable? Perhaps the priests and monks look on as people make offerings, and are feeling glad that people are parting from attachment, not parting from wealth. Perhaps they look on and feel glad that people are cultivating generosity, not that they themselves are getting richer. . . Perhaps they look on and feel happy that people are gaining the wealth of merit by offering to the Three Jewels, not that the Three Jewels have any concepts of gain or loss. . .

It is impossible to judge anyone from appearances alone, especially someone that may have realization. It is best to examine one's own mind in all actions, and as lojong training indicates: as soon as a negative state arises, firmly face and avert it. Other than examining closely someone we are considering taking as our Guru, there is usually not benefit from looking for others faults. We have plenty of our own and they condition how we will perceive the motivations of others.

I realize your point and actually back it up with an "I aggree"...I get it.....but still i'm confused.....

but why mislead people to the point they pray to Buddha for favor...

then there is this whole make offerings to the three jewels thing.....

do you realize how dodegy that is......

why not make an edict...we are going to ask you to make only visual offerings till this temple depletes all it's monetary resource.....and we are down to an empty begging bowl.....
edited this:
It is not uncommon to see young Buddhist priests in Japan drive Lamborghinis....

[Adamantine]

I am not saying that there is not institutional corruption, that is the nature of institutions. . . In the relative, sure, there probably are many people in monks clothes that don't really qualify as objects of refuge. But certainly there are many who do qualify. SO why dwell on the negative, when it will not help one's practice? To be sure, it is certainly possible to practice Tantra at a very high level and still have many possessions..the key is not grasping, being attached to them. this is why these teachings were initially given to kings. However, if someone has taken monastic vows then obviously possessing and displaying great wealth is not what the Buddha taught monastics to do. So, realize that this is the degenerate age, and don't dwell on it. Look to the monks, teachers, Lamas, etc. who inspire you with faith due to their positive qualities. Examine your own mind. Don't dwell on the defects of others.

[Rael]

I am not saying that there is not institutional corruption, that is the nature of institutions. . . In the relative, sure, there probably are many people in monks clothes that don't really qualify as objects of refuge. But certainly there are many who do qualify. SO why dwell on the negative, when it will not help one's practice? To be sure, it is certainly possible to practice Tantra at a very high level and still have many possessions..the key is not grasping, being attached to them. this is why these teachings were initially given to kings. However, if someone has taken monastic vows then obviously possessing and displaying great wealth is not what the Buddha taught monastics to do. So, realize that this is the degenerate age, and don't dwell on it. Look to the monks, teachers, Lamas, etc. who inspire you with faith due to their positive qualities. Examine your own mind. Don't dwell on the defects of others.

I hear ya....

your right....

it was weird ...but i live a somewhat up and down monetary life...I've been impoverished..know what it's like to look at an apple as an expense...and in that My Tullku teacher started telling me about the beauty of His new retreat and the organic toilet....

at the same time i was happy for Him..i thought wow this Guy is really attached to worldly things....

He reads minds well and He stopped and looked really worried at me......he became very quiet....

i like to think i reminded Him of something.....


ok so lets not focus on the fact what the Buddha taught us ...not to ask Him for anything....is not really pushed as a teaching....and as the throngs of of people pack the Temples of Hong Kong, for instance, and offer their weekly incenses and money for fortune, we are to look at it from a good thing view.....

[Josef]

then there is this whole make offerings to the three jewels thing.....

do you realize how dodegy that is.......

Its not dodgy at all.
Offerings to the three jewels are a great source of merit for the practitioner. Just like offerings to those in need etc.
How do we expect our teachers, monastic community, and dharma centers to cover their living expenses so we can benefit from the services that we offer if we are unwilling to support them?
Of course there have been cases of individuals taking advantage of financial and other offerings but to dismiss the practice all together is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
I for one will always be happy to financially support my teachers to the best of my ability.

[Rael]

then there is this whole make offerings to the three jewels thing.....

do you realize how dodegy that is.......

Its not dodgy at all.
Offerings to the three jewels are a great source of merit for the practitioner. Just like offerings to those in need etc.
How do we expect our teachers, monastic community, and dharma centers to cover their living expenses so we can benefit from the services that we offer if we are unwilling to support them?
Of course there have been cases of individuals taking advantage of financial and other offerings but to dismiss the practice all together is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
I for one will always be happy to financially support my teachers to the best of my ability.

i hope you see the whole HONEST PICTURE i'm describing here.....
i don't disagree with you.....

AND THIS HAS TO BE MADE CLEAR!!!!!

it's not so much the wolves i'm worried about....

it's the whole premise....

It took me years to come to this conclusion before I asked The Tulku in public.....i realized i was rubbing a whole gambit of issue.....

do you not see how far from the tree this aspect has rolled.....

[Adamantine]

it was weird ...but i live a somewhat up and down monetary life...I've been impoverished..know what it's like to look at an apple as an expense...and in that My Tullku teacher started telling me about the beauty of His new retreat and the organic toilet....

at the same time i was happy for Him..i thought wow this Guy is really attached to worldly things....

He reads minds well and He stopped and looked really worried at me......he became very quiet....

i like to think i reminded Him of something.....

.

If he reads minds he probably saw you having wrong view towards the teacher. He was probably concerned for you, for the result of that action. If he had regret it may have been the type of regret a parent has when their child is misbehaving. If he is a tantric Guru of yours then it is now your practice to always see them with pure vision. In that moment, rejoicing in your teacher having a nice retreat in which to perform their multifarious activities that benefit beings-- this would have enabled you to share the merit of those who made offerings for it, even if you hadn't. Really, without knowing him I am confident he was worried for you, not about his attachment. As I said, high level practitioners can have many possessions, this will not hinder their practice if they are not attached to them. That doesn't mean they can't appreciate having them either.

[Josef]

[quote="Rael"]



it's the whole premise..../quote]
What about the "premise"?

[Rael]

it was weird ...but i live a somewhat up and down monetary life...I've been impoverished..know what it's like to look at an apple as an expense...and in that My Tullku teacher started telling me about the beauty of His new retreat and the organic toilet....

at the same time i was happy for Him..i thought wow this Guy is really attached to worldly things....

He reads minds well and He stopped and looked really worried at me......he became very quiet....

i like to think i reminded Him of something.....

.

If he reads minds he probably saw you having wrong view towards the teacher. He was probably concerned for you, for the result of that action. If he had regret it may have been the type of regret a parent has when their child is misbehaving. If he is a tantric Guru of yours then it is now your practice to always see them with pure vision. In that moment, rejoicing in your teacher having a nice retreat in which to perform their multifarious activities that benefit beings-- this would have enabled you to share the merit of those who made offerings for it, even if you hadn't. Really, without knowing him I am confident he was worried for you, not about his attachment. As I said, high level practitioners can have many possessions, this will not hinder their practice if they are not attached to them. That doesn't mean they can't appreciate having them either.

NAH!!!!!

We shared a moment of understanding....

I just saw what He refers to as human faults showing up in the Guru....

no big whoop....He is not a greedy man.....He actually is quite the opposite.....

He is sensitive to poverty.....

I shared this with you out of honesty....

I know what you and Nangwa and others are thinking and saying.....your right....

But i'm the guy that likes to pull back the pendulum is all....

the apple has rolled too far from the tree........
Even for the Enlightened....

I'm not frightened to say this stuff...it has to be said and thought about.....

hypocrisy is Maya incarnate.....

[Josef]

Its not about being frightened to say something.
Its about completely denying the conventional/relative situation that we are dealing with in favor of an impossible ideal.
Should non-monastic teachers walk around a neighborhood in Brooklyn going door to door with a begging bowl or work 40 hours a week bagging groceries?

[Rael]

Its not about being frightened to say something.
Its about completely denying the conventional/relative situation that we are dealing with in favor of an impossible ideal.
Should non-monastic teachers walk around a neighborhood in Brooklyn going door to door with a begging bowl or work 40 hours a week bagging groceries?

No...but honesty would be in order on a major scale...

there are people so ignorant to believe that making these offerings will bring them out of their suffering ...like maybe tomorrow...and no one is actually telling them what these offerings are actually doing.....

the suffering people's of this world spend huge fortunes on this sort of premise.....

huge fortunes are made by people who have the likes of you typing in their behalf....

so i ask you....

Does the Buddha help you...he said He can't.....

How magnificent a lifestyle and Temple do you need in Brooklyn....


ack.....

[Josef]

Its not about being frightened to say something.
Its about completely denying the conventional/relative situation that we are dealing with in favor of an impossible ideal.
Should non-monastic teachers walk around a neighborhood in Brooklyn going door to door with a begging bowl or work 40 hours a week bagging groceries?

No...but honesty would be in order on a major scale...

there are people so ignorant to believe that making these offerings will bring them out of their suffering ...like maybe tomorrow...and no one is actually telling them what these offerings are actually doing.....

the suffering people's of this world spend huge fortunes on this sort of premise.....

huge fortunes are made by people who have the likes of you typing in their behalf....

so i ask you....

Does the Buddha help you...he said He can't.....

How magnificent a lifestyle and Temple do you need in Brooklyn....


ack.....

Making offerings is an excellent source for the accumulation of merit. If people are ignorant enough to think that making offerings alone will liberate them, then they need to hit the books and listen to what they are being taught.
I dont think "the suffering peoples of the world spend huge fortunes on this sort of premise" is an accurate statement.
The Buddha's teachings help me, and I get those from my teachers. If I am unwilling to help them continue teaching through my support then I shouldnt expect them to give me the teachings.
There arent really any magnificent temples or authentic dharma teachers living in opulent magnificence in Brooklyn that I know of.
ack...