Obama's Left "Humanitarian" War.

[gregkavarnos]

CO2 is only one of the greenhouse gases -- there are many others more pernicious.

can you site sources for this.

thanks

CFC's, methane, nitrous oxide, hydrocarbons of one type or another, water vapour arising from combustion, etc... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_gas

Anyway, regardless of the pseudo-scientific claims from either side of the greenhouse debate, I think that you would have to be brain dead or extraordinarily deluded to believe that current industrial methods, power generation, mining techniques, consumer lifestyles, etc... are not destroying this planet. Like completely shot!

[gregkavarnos]

green peace co-founder patrick moore lamented that the group had been co-opted by hardcore communists, hell bent on shutting down western industry and resources.

PS Green Peace is not an ecological organistaion it is an environmentalist organisation. The difference? Simply put: Environmentalists look to reform attitudes/actions towards the environment in order to sustain human growth and development, ecologists put the ecological system first and look to sustain environmental growth and development for the sake of the environment/ecological system.

Social ecologists consider social/political revolution (as well as reform) as a viable option to bring about this change.

[Heruka]

[Heruka]

CO2 is only one of the greenhouse gases -- there are many others more pernicious.

can you site sources for this.

thanks

Sulfur hexafluoride, for example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfur_hex ... nhouse_gas

i dont really want to get into the whole government driving the answers from science to fit a agenda issue, i think we have all seen the farce of the UN's ipcc carbon credit scam, but what is interesting to me anyway is, and without testing whether this is a homonuclear diatomic molecule that has no electric dipole, if it has not, then simply it does not absorb radiation in the infrared from vibrational energy, and cant be much of anything.
but thanks for the head scratcher anyway!


from your link...

It is a hypervalent molecule. Typical for a nonpolar gas

the science is not settled on this, i dont want to bore you with jargon, but its a contoversy.

[Heruka]

Anyway, regardless of the pseudo-scientific claims from either side of the greenhouse debate, I think that you would have to be brain dead or extraordinarily deluded to believe that current industrial methods, power generation, mining techniques, consumer lifestyles, etc... are not destroying this planet. Like completely shot!

lol, yes i think both sides can get extreme, and i can understand the passion and desire from both. what we need is concern about pollution, we need to address that i agree 100%, but we need also to weed out the extremists and settle on logic and data and some common sense, free of the dooomsday alarmists.

[kirtu]

Why have the Saudi's not quietly arranged a villa for Quadaffi like they did for Idi Amin? This would solve the problem without violence.

Kirt

[gregkavarnos]

Why have the Saudi's not quietly arranged a villa for Quadaffi like they did for Idi Amin? This would solve the problem without violence.

How do you know theyhaven't already organised the villa and aren't just staging a "going out with a bang" performance? The Greek prime minister was in Libya a couple of months before the uprising started, making undocumented deals with Gaddafi. Then two weeks ago a Libyan diplomatic aircraft with two passengers landed in Athens and nothing further was reported about the matter. Add to that the Greek governments reluctance to give military support in Libya... It's not the first time Greece has been used to help fugitive political leaders escape. In 1999 they assisted the leader of the PKK (kurdish communist party) Abdullah Ocalan escape from europe (he was wanted on terrorist organisation charges) by smuggling him to the Greek consulate in Kenya and then handed him over to Turkish agents in order to appease Turkey and not start a fullscale war with them. Okay maybe they haven't smuggled Gaddafi himself out of Libya yet, but something is definitely cooking.

[Heruka]

I would follow the gold, that in itself would be more telling.

btw,

http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... e27760.htm

The CIA’s Libya Rebels:
2007 West Point Study Shows Benghazi-Darnah-Tobruk Area was a World Leader in Al Qaeda Suicide Bomber Recruitment

By Webster G. Tarpley, Ph.D.



extract

The most striking finding which emerges from the West Point study is that the corridor which goes from Benghazi to Tobruk, passing through the city of Darnah (also transliterated as Derna) them represents one of the greatest concentrations of jihadi terrorists to be found anywhere in the world, and by some measures can be regarded as the leading source of suicide bombers anywhere on the planet. Darnah, with one terrorist fighter sent into Iraq to kill Americans for every 1,000 to 1,500 persons of population, emerges as suicide bomber heaven, easily surpassing the closest competitor, which was Riyad, Saudi Arabia.

According to West Point authors Joseph Felter and Brian Fishman, Saudi Arabia took first place as regards absolute numbers of jihadis sent to combat the United States and other coalition members in Iraq during the time frame in question. Libya, a country less than one fourth as populous, took second place. Saudi Arabia sent 41% of the fighters. According to Felter and Fishman, “Libya was the next most common country of origin, with 18.8% (112) of the fighters listing their nationality stating they hailed from Libya.” Other much larger countries were far behind: “Syria, Yemen, and Algeria were the next most common origin countries with 8.2% (49), 8.1% (48), and 7.2% (43), respectively. Moroccans accounted for 6.1% (36) of the records and Jordanians 1.9% (11).”2

This means that almost one fifth of the foreign fighters entering Iraq across the Syrian border came from Libya, a country of just over 6 million people. A higher proportion of Libyans were interested in fighting in Iraq than any other country contributing mujahedin. Felter and Fishman point out: “Almost 19 percent of the fighters in the Sinjar Records came from Libya alone. Furthermore, Libya contributed far more fighters per capita than any other nationality in the Sinjar Records, including Saudi Arabia.” (See the chart from the West Point report, page 9)3

But since the Al Qaeda personnel files contain the residence or hometown of the foreign fighters in question, we can determine that the desire to travel to Iraq to kill Americans was not evenly distributed across Libya, but was highly concentrated precisely in those areas around Benghazi which are today the epicenters of the revolt against Colonel Gaddafi which the US, Britain, France, and others are so eagerly supporting.

[Heruka]

Interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski
Le Nouvel Observateur (France)
Jan 15-21, 1998, p. 76*

Q: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs
["From the Shadows"], that American intelligence services began to aid
the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention.
In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter.
You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?

Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to
the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army
invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until
now, is completely otherwise: Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President
Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of The
pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the
president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was
going to induce a Soviet military intervention.

Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But
perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to
provoke it?

B: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we
knowingly increased the probability that they would.

Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they
intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in
Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of
truth. You don't regret anything today?

B: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the
effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to
regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote
to President Carter: We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its
Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war
unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the
demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic fundamentalism,
having given arms and advice to future terrorists?

B: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the
collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation
of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?

Q: Some stirred-up Moslems? But it has been said and repeated:
fundamentalism represents a world menace today.

[gregkavarnos]

Paranoia!

The reason France, Italy and England are hell bent on bringing a quick and "positive" end to the uprising is beacause they know that if they let Gaddafi win, then when he starts the carckdowns all those 100,000's of refugees will end up on their doorstep, AGAIN! Just like with Iraq, Aghanistan, Pakistan, Egypt, Turkey, Yugoslavia, Libya, etc...

Anyway, why would the EU give a flying fornication about suicide bombers from Libya killing US military in Iraq? I mean it is quite clear, to anybody outside of the US, that the sole purpose of US military presence in Iraq is to protect (American) corporate oil interests. If the US really gives a crap about the servicemen and women in Iraq then all it has to do is withdraw them. It's quite simple really.

Anyway, if the EU did not offer air support to the rebels Gadaffi would have just leveled every city that did not support him, just bombed the crap out of them! Should we just stand aside and watch him do this?

Of course there are a variety of economic and geopolitical issues being played out on the sidelines, but...

[Heruka]

Paranoia!

Libyan rebel commander admits his fighters have al-Qaeda links

Abdel-Hakim al-Hasidi, the Libyan rebel leader, has said jihadists who fought against allied troops in Iraq are on the front lines of the battle against Muammar Gaddafi's regime.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -side.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... links.html

[Heruka]

Paranoia!

Qaeda-Linked Imam Dined at Pentagon after 9/11


Anwar al-Awlaki - the radical spiritual leader linked to several 9/11 attackers, the Fort Hood shooting, and the attempted Christmas Day bombing of an airliner - was a guest at the Pentagon in the months after 9/11, a Pentagon official confirmed to CBS News.

Awlaki was invited as "...part of an informal outreach program" in which officials sought contact "...with leading members of the Muslim community," the official said. At that time, Awlaki was widely viewed as a "moderate" imam at a mosque in Northern Virginia.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/10/ ... 8200.shtml

[Heruka]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2002 ... vidshayler


British intelligence paid large sums of money to an al-Qaeda cell in Libya in a doomed attempt to assassinate Colonel Gadaffi in 1996 and thwarted early attempts to bring Osama bin Laden to justice.
The latest claims of MI6 involvement with Libya's fearsome Islamic Fighting Group, which is connected to one of bin Laden's trusted lieutenants, will be embarrassing to the Government, which described similar claims by renegade MI5 officer David Shayler as 'pure fantasy'

[Heruka]

Greg, we can go on and on...


Gaddafi insists al Qaeda is to blame for chaos and killings

http://www.france24.com/en/20110307-lib ... zi--deaths

[gregkavarnos]

Well, if the main stream press and CIA says so then it must be true then...

So all those innocent women, children and non-combatants being killed in bombing raids by Gadaffi are all al-Quaeda operatives and deserve to die unprotected by the international community? Or maybe the international community should be bombing them as well?

Have you considered that this sudden plethora of news items linking the Libyan uprising to al-Quaeda may just be rhetoric/propaganda to colour US citizens views of the issue so that the US government has a "democratic" directive from its citizens to not get involved now (but will probably send occupation troops later to ensure the safety and stability of US democracy)?

Are the uprisings in Syria, Jordan and Egypt also being run by al-Quaeda?

PARANOIA!

And what of this comment of mine?

Anyway, why would the EU give a flying fornication about suicide bombers from Libya killing US military in Iraq? I mean it is quite clear, to anybody outside of the US, that the sole purpose of US military presence in Iraq is to protect (American) corporate oil interests. If the US really gives a crap about the servicemen and women in Iraq then all it has to do is withdraw them. It's quite simple really.

[Heruka]

Hi Greg,

Syria is a little more tricky at the moment, I’ve noticed a western group called freedom now, that has some links (members) to the CFR (council on foreign relations http://www.cfr.org/ ) which can influence US foreign policy, but it’s a little difficult to get any real deep information, but two players on their map are two Syrian human rights lawyers

http://www.freedom-now.org/campaign/haitham-al-maleh/

http://www.freedom-now.org/campaign/muh ... l-hassani/

http://www.freedom-now.org/about/mission/

Not saying anything sinister about it, but often CFR are at the center of any destabilizing regime change think tank policies. Just need to press the right buttons.

Syria is most certainly on CIA take down list. Egypt was a different game, Mubarak was not going along with western games, they wanted missile shield in Egypt as a front against Iran. Egypt also was the center for CIA black sites for secret rendition torture, and Egyptian military had close ties to US. Tunis was just pure and simple the people had had enough of high food prices, corruption and lack of jobs. We could also argue that this was an economic result of US policy.

BTW, most of these types of aggitations occur through NGO's, Foundations and so on, that really is the function of such groups.

but any way...............so what?

[Heruka]

And what of this comment of mine?

Anyway, why would the EU give a flying fornication about suicide bombers from Libya killing US military in Iraq? I mean it is quite clear, to anybody outside of the US, that the sole purpose of US military presence in Iraq is to protect (American) corporate oil interests. If the US really gives a crap about the servicemen and women in Iraq then all it has to do is withdraw them. It's quite simple really.

here is a typical CFR war hawkish paper.

http://blogs.cfr.org/abrams/2011/03/26/ ... interests/

Now if we look at the huge budget blackhole of unreported trillions of dollars (see Rumsfelds press comments days before petagon was hit on september 11, that he didnt know where trillions of dollars had gone) you can understand the need to keep american boots on the ground for as long as possible, if the opposition disapears, then create a new one, or hire a merc firm (Al Qadea) or (blackwater) to aggitate, bomb, and shoot, as pretext to keep US boots on the ground. It helps to fund both sides if your in the war business.

[Heruka]

Have you considered that this sudden plethora of news items linking the Libyan uprising to al-Quaeda may just be rhetoric/propaganda to colour US citizens views of the issue so that the US government has a "democratic" directive from its citizens to not get involved now (but will probably send occupation troops later to ensure the safety and stability of US democracy)?

some of the reports go back as far as 2002. So really its old news, but now in new light.

[Heruka]

the new world order _UN_ mission creep continues......

a liberal caring/sharing humanitarian war my ass.

impeachable......oh yes>


Intelligence experts said the CIA would have sent officials to make contact with the opposition and assess the strength and needs of the rebel forces battling Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi in the event President Barack Obama decided to arm them.


al qadea now is good, and our friend!

orwell is now all good!

CIA operatives on the ground in Libya
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_us_libya_ ... Nlc2NpYQ--

[Heruka]

<P>The former intelligence officer said some CIA officers also had been staging
from the agency's station in Dubai, in the United Arab Emirates.</P>


http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/RIC111B.html