Sects and Sectarianism

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

Re: Sects and Sectarianism

Postby Heruka » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:23 pm

Yeshe wrote:
Heruka wrote:
human realm is a "shared human karmic vision" so no, your wrong.


Human realm has many beings. No evidence that, lacking inherent existence, phenomena are perceived in the same way by even two of them.




simply put, a house with a roof, or some type of dwelling is a shared human karmic vision, we have that need for shelter, to maintain a karmic body (another shared karmic vision).
We would see a home, a cow would see a place to shLt. A cow does not share a human vision.
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Re: Sects and Sectarianism

Postby Blue Garuda » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:32 pm

Heruka wrote:
Yeshe wrote:
Heruka wrote:
human realm is a "shared human karmic vision" so no, your wrong.


Human realm has many beings. No evidence that, lacking inherent existence, phenomena are perceived in the same way by even two of them.




simply put, a house with a roof, or some type of dwelling is a shared human karmic vision, we have that need for shelter, to maintain a karmic body. We would see a home, a cow would see a place to shLt. A cow does not share a human vision.


Yes, but even with a shared name for a colour like 'red', which we agree upon, there is no way of determining if the red I see is the red you see in terms of sensory input, let alone what our minds are interpreting.

'Karmic vision' ? Karma is action, vision is sense. Neither can be shared.

Equally, if we use a name, some may see that as representing 'demon', other as representing 'Buddha'. Understanding that and accepting it, we avoid suffering.
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Re: Sects and Sectarianism

Postby Heruka » Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:16 pm

Yeshe wrote:

'Karmic vision' ? Karma is action, vision is sense. Neither can be shared.

Equally, if we use a name, some may see that as representing 'demon', other as representing 'Buddha'. Understanding that and accepting it, we avoid suffering.


Vision in a sense of "experience". Lets take your buddha as a demon example. From a sutric understanding it is important to make definitions, this is good, that is bad etc, as is proper for those on stages and paths of merit and wisdom, of purification, and sutra style of proceeding. In tantric terms, we do not reject anything as good and bad, we simply use it all as wisdom and merit. a simple way to put it, in sutra style, a gold statue of the buddha is object of reverence and a gold ash tray is something we do not place offerings in. Yet in tantric way, we can see that a gold buddha or a gold ash tray is no difference, we can enjoy offering flowers to statue and also offer a cigarette we have enjoyed into a gold ash tray. we can also melt down the gold statue and make an ash tray, the object has changed but not the gold. Like dharma, it is the gold that matters, not the object. the rest is just karmic vision.

sectarian attitudes then come from an idea that this is good and this is bad, a sutric attitude of not allowing the object to change from a buddha to an ash tray, this is where the fundementalism creeps in. Nothing stays the same, all things change. It is clinging to the way things are, the attachment and aversion that brings about the suffering of sectarianism. Instead of recognizing that the gold remains gold, no matter what it melts into.
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Re: Sects and Sectarianism

Postby LastLegend » Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:15 am

Shared karma for example the Japanese disaster which killed people who happened to be at the same place and the same time. This is my understanding of shared karma. Hmmm, also we have messed up the earth so bad, I guess we will experience results from this act also.
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Re: Sects and Sectarianism

Postby Heruka » Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:25 am

was there a story about many sakya clans people that were killed in a battle with a rival kingdom, and when asked about it the buddha said that it was due to the fact that long ago they caught many fish and it was because of that that the people were killed in many numbers?

not sure.

memory bad!
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Re: Sects and Sectarianism

Postby Heruka » Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:29 am

LastLegend wrote:Shared karma for example the Japanese disaster which killed people who happened to be at the same place and the same time. This is my understanding of shared karma. Hmmm, also we have messed up the earth so bad, I guess we will experience results from this act also.



this is a loaded question, many conditions and unknows to know.

i dont know, i only know it is better to help the living than to mourn the dead at this time.
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Re: Sects and Sectarianism

Postby LastLegend » Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:33 am

Heruka wrote:was there a story about many sakya clans people that were killed in a battle with a rival kingdom, and when asked about it the buddha said that it was due to the fact that long ago they caught many fish and it was because of that that the people were killed in many numbers?

not sure.

memory bad!


Yes sirrr

Indeed collective act leads to shared karma


this is a loaded question, many conditions and unknows to know.

i dont know, i only know it is better to help the living than to mourn the dead at this time.


Wordd
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Re: Sects and Sectarianism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:18 am

LastLegend wrote:Indeed collective act leads to shared karma
Hog wash. The following is a quote from SN 3.4, Piya Sutta: Dear
If you hold yourself dear
then don't fetter yourself
with evil,
for happiness isn't easily gained
by one who commits
a wrong-doing.

When seized by the End-maker
as you abandon the human state,
what's truly your own?
What do you take along when you go?
What follows behind you
like a shadow
that never leaves?

Both the merit & evil
that you as a mortal
perform here:
that's what's truly your own,
what you take along when you go;
that's what follows behind you
like a shadow
that never leaves.

SN 3.20, Aputtaka Sutta: Heirless
What you do
with body, speech, or mind:
that is yours;
taking
that you go;
that's
your follower,
like a shadow
that never leaves.
I could go on for ages but it would get rather boring and I think the point is quite clear. There are no references, except for the vague reference that Heruka made, which I have also heard quoted as a vague reference, in any of the Buddhas, and other enlightened masters teachings, about the presence of shared karma vipakka.
I asked my lama one time about this and he said: Even in a battle situation where one group is fighting another group for a supposed common end, each individual in the group will undergo different outcomes because: a. none of the individuals have the exact same motivation for their actions, b. none of the individuals will feel exactly the same way about the outcome of their actions, c. none of the individuals will execute exactly the same actions. AND (this is my addition), each of the individuals has already accumulated karma from past actions which has yet to ripen, so again the outcomes will differ.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Sects and Sectarianism

Postby LastLegend » Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:50 am

gregkavarnos wrote:
LastLegend wrote:Indeed collective act leads to shared karma
Hog wash. The following is a quote from SN 3.4, Piya Sutta: Dear
If you hold yourself dear
then don't fetter yourself
with evil,
for happiness isn't easily gained
by one who commits
a wrong-doing.

When seized by the End-maker
as you abandon the human state,
what's truly your own?
What do you take along when you go?
What follows behind you
like a shadow
that never leaves?

Both the merit & evil
that you as a mortal
perform here:
that's what's truly your own,
what you take along when you go;
that's what follows behind you
like a shadow
that never leaves.

SN 3.20, Aputtaka Sutta: Heirless
What you do
with body, speech, or mind:
that is yours;
taking
that you go;
that's
your follower,
like a shadow
that never leaves.
I could go on for ages but it would get rather boring and I think the point is quite clear. There are no references, except for the vague reference that Heruka made, which I have also heard quoted as a vague reference, in any of the Buddhas, and other enlightened masters teachings, about the presence of shared karma vipakka.
I asked my lama one time about this and he said: Even in a battle situation where one group is fighting another group for a supposed common end, each individual in the group will undergo different outcomes because: a. none of the individuals have the exact same motivation for their actions, b. none of the individuals will feel exactly the same way about the outcome of their actions, c. none of the individuals will execute exactly the same actions. AND (this is my addition), each of the individuals has already accumulated karma from past actions which has yet to ripen, so again the outcomes will differ.
:namaste:


ok
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Re: Sects and Sectarianism

Postby Tilopa » Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:02 am

gregkavarnos wrote: Hog wash.

I don't think so. All the teachings I have received on this subject have included an explanation of 'collective karma' where groups of individuals share the same general experience. For example all those affected by the recent earthquake and tsunami or the Tibetans being invaded and oppressed by the Chinese. For sure individual karma affects each persons specific experience so that some die, some don't and so forth but why does something like that happen to a group, tribe, family or whatever? Collective karma.
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Re: Sects and Sectarianism

Postby Astus » Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:05 am

I recommend discussing group karma in the topic Group Karma as it's not related to this thread.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Sects and Sectarianism

Postby muni » Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:33 am

If the "me who knows, the me who understands" grasps to its' identity like being Theravada, Mahayana, being high - low; there is merely satisfying idea. Waaaaah! Can you imagine I let go my correct elaborations? I should lose myself!

Buddhism. Sectarian = grasping.

karmic condition.
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Re: Sects and Sectarianism

Postby muni » Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:09 pm

Nangwa wrote:[

Sectarianism is alive and well and it isnt going anywhere any time soon.


When there seems to be one lower, we can wait. When there seems to be one higher, garlic soup should reduce mountain sickness. Sectarian is the own suffering experience of narrowness between our ears. Illusions don't come, don't go when we don't feed them, don't cling to them.
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